|
Post by futurist on Oct 18, 2018 2:09:27 GMT
What if 2018 France would have been moved to 1870--specifically right after the start of the Franco-Prussian War?
|
|
|
Post by steve59 on Oct 18, 2018 9:04:41 GMT
What if 2018 France would have been moved to 1870--specifically right after the start of the Franco-Prussian War?
No German empire and probably an end to German unification. French domination of the world for at probably a couple of generations and the rest of the western world going "Oh s**t!". Not sure what the French would do to depose of their existing 1870 empire, although think this is largely in N Africa and the Caribbean at this point. How it interacts with the rest of the world, especially Europe and N America is going to be interesting.
|
|
|
Post by futurist on Oct 27, 2018 0:10:49 GMT
What if 2018 France would have been moved to 1870--specifically right after the start of the Franco-Prussian War?
No German empire and probably an end to German unification. French domination of the world for at probably a couple of generations and the rest of the western world going "Oh s**t!". Not sure what the French would do to depose of their existing 1870 empire, although think this is largely in N Africa and the Caribbean at this point. How it interacts with the rest of the world, especially Europe and N America is going to be interesting.
Completely agreed with all of this. Also, in regards to its empire, I suspect that France would aim to give its colonies (including Algeria, which was de facto a French colony) a pathway towards eventual independence--though it might not be immediate since France needs time to cultivate an indigenous elite in these colonies.
|
|
|
Post by steve59 on Oct 27, 2018 10:56:09 GMT
No German empire and probably an end to German unification. French domination of the world for at probably a couple of generations and the rest of the western world going "Oh s**t!". Not sure what the French would do to depose of their existing 1870 empire, although think this is largely in N Africa and the Caribbean at this point. How it interacts with the rest of the world, especially Europe and N America is going to be interesting.
Completely agreed with all of this. Also, in regards to its empire, I suspect that France would aim to give its colonies (including Algeria, which was de facto a French colony) a pathway towards eventual independence--though it might not be immediate since France needs time to cultivate an indigenous elite in these colonies.
One complication here would be that there are a sizeable number of French muslims, mainly from the N African colonies/protectors and especially I believe from Algeria. I don't know if it might suggest a swap, say they go to Algeria to help modernise it while the French [and Italian] settlers in the French colonies are brought back to Europe. Although apart from the question of it appearing like ethnic cleansing, albeit of a non-bloody type, it would also mean a lot of mixing of 1870 and 2018 populations with probably explosive effects in cases.
The other question might be how France, now clearly the most powerful state in the world reacts to say the other colonial powers and the expansion and racism in the US and China say? There's a hell of a lot of things people in 2018 France would want to change but how much it is willing to do and what ways it tries is a huge and complex issue.
|
|
|
Post by futurist on Oct 28, 2018 7:44:51 GMT
I'm not sure that French Muslims would be very eager to abandon their relatively comfortable lives in France (even if they're poor, it's still a massive improvement over living in some pre-industrialized hellhole) to move to backwards, pre-industrialized Algeria. The Europeans in Algeria and possibly the Muslims there as well might be extremely eager to move to France en masse, though. Of course, they could be massively conflicted about this since they'd probably badly want the massive improvement in their quality of life which would come as a result of moving to France but at the same time they would probably loathe France for its attitudes towards things such as women's rights and same-sex marriage. Ultimately I think that the money will draw them to France, though.
I don't think that China in 1870 was particularly racist--was it? As for the U.S., I expect France to aggressively push for things such as the legalization of interracial marriage in the U.S. nationwide. I'm sure that they'd be aware of 1870 American sensitivities in regards to things such as gay rights (just like they are aware of this in regards to much of the 2018 Muslim world), but the American hostility towards interracial marriage might have been a bit unusual even in 1870--especially in regards to American anti-miscegenation laws.
|
|
|
Post by steve59 on Oct 28, 2018 10:21:00 GMT
I'm not sure that French Muslims would be very eager to abandon their relatively comfortable lives in France (even if they're poor, it's still a massive improvement over living in some pre-industrialized hellhole) to move to backwards, pre-industrialized Algeria. The Europeans in Algeria and possibly the Muslims there as well might be extremely eager to move to France en masse, though. Of course, they could be massively conflicted about this since they'd probably badly want the massive improvement in their quality of life which would come as a result of moving to France but at the same time they would probably loathe France for its attitudes towards things such as women's rights and same-sex marriage. Ultimately I think that the money will draw them to France, though.
Agree with those points but you would probably have at least some willing to move back to Algeria to help it develop, especially since it would give chances to have both wealth and influence/power in the new state.
China has traditionally been deeply racist plus at this point there is growing racial intolerance among the western community towards the Chinese.
I don't think the French would seriously push the issue of anti-miscegenation laws in the US, at least unless their willing to be totally ignored or to actually invade the US! Racism is so deeply embedded in the US at this point and IIRC some of those laws were only repealed in some states in the 1950s. Racism is fairly deeply embedded in the world as a whole and is prominent on western culture generally but most lack a substantial non-European presence in their homelands so its most noticeable in the US.
|
|
|
Post by futurist on Oct 28, 2018 23:40:18 GMT
I'm not sure that French Muslims would be very eager to abandon their relatively comfortable lives in France (even if they're poor, it's still a massive improvement over living in some pre-industrialized hellhole) to move to backwards, pre-industrialized Algeria. The Europeans in Algeria and possibly the Muslims there as well might be extremely eager to move to France en masse, though. Of course, they could be massively conflicted about this since they'd probably badly want the massive improvement in their quality of life which would come as a result of moving to France but at the same time they would probably loathe France for its attitudes towards things such as women's rights and same-sex marriage. Ultimately I think that the money will draw them to France, though.
1. Agree with those points but you would probably have at least some willing to move back to Algeria to help it develop, especially since it would give chances to have both wealth and influence/power in the new state.
2. China has traditionally been deeply racist plus at this point there is growing racial intolerance among the western community towards the Chinese.
I don't think the French would seriously push the issue of anti-miscegenation laws in the US, at least unless their willing to be totally ignored or to actually invade the US! Racism is so deeply embedded in the US at this point and IIRC some of those laws were only repealed in some states in the 1950s. Racism is fairly deeply embedded in the world as a whole and is prominent on western culture generally but most lack a substantial non-European presence in their homelands so its most noticeable in the US.
1. Agreed. 2. At this point, do you mean 1870 or 2018? Also, for what it's worth, the period right after the end of the American Civil War actually was a relatively progressive time in regards to anti-miscegenation laws. I'll quote David Upham in regards to this: static1.squarespace.com/static/591ccf16db29d6afe8606726/t/5962db6dd2b85754d966c3b8/1499650925996/Upham_Website+FINAL.pdf"Despite many unrepealed statutes, Judge Townsend’s report shows that within five years of the Fourteenth Amendment’s ratification, racial-endogamy laws either did not exist or were not in force in 21 states. These states, 21 of the 37, represented a clear majority of the whole number of states (roughly 57%), and contained roughly 60% of the nation’s population.250 If Ohio and Rhode Island, the two other states where the law was (virtually) a dead letter are added, the total comes to 62% of the states, containing roughly 70% of the national population.251 Furthermore, those 23 states represented nearly 70% of the states (33) that had ratified the Amendment by 1873.252" Some people might forget that the 1870s was a relatively progressive time in regards to race relations in the U.S.--with Blacks being given the right to vote nationwide in the U.S., with anti-miscegenation laws being repealed or unenforced in many U.S. states, and with a serious but ultimately unsuccessful attempt in the U.S. Congress to desegregate the schools in the U.S. in 1874-1875. Also, 2018 France actually would be able to defeat the 1870 U.S. in a war due to its superior technology and larger population.
|
|
|
Post by steve59 on Oct 29, 2018 21:52:33 GMT
1. Agree with those points but you would probably have at least some willing to move back to Algeria to help it develop, especially since it would give chances to have both wealth and influence/power in the new state.
2. China has traditionally been deeply racist plus at this point there is growing racial intolerance among the western community towards the Chinese.
I don't think the French would seriously push the issue of anti-miscegenation laws in the US, at least unless their willing to be totally ignored or to actually invade the US! Racism is so deeply embedded in the US at this point and IIRC some of those laws were only repealed in some states in the 1950s. Racism is fairly deeply embedded in the world as a whole and is prominent on western culture generally but most lack a substantial non-European presence in their homelands so its most noticeable in the US.
1. Agreed. 2. At this point, do you mean 1870 or 2018? Also, for what it's worth, the period right after the end of the American Civil War actually was a relatively progressive time in regards to anti-miscegenation laws. I'll quote David Upham in regards to this: static1.squarespace.com/static/591ccf16db29d6afe8606726/t/5962db6dd2b85754d966c3b8/1499650925996/Upham_Website+FINAL.pdf"Despite many unrepealed statutes, Judge Townsend’s report shows that within five years of the Fourteenth Amendment’s ratification, racial-endogamy laws either did not exist or were not in force in 21 states. These states, 21 of the 37, represented a clear majority of the whole number of states (roughly 57%), and contained roughly 60% of the nation’s population.250 If Ohio and Rhode Island, the two other states where the law was (virtually) a dead letter are added, the total comes to 62% of the states, containing roughly 70% of the national population.251 Furthermore, those 23 states represented nearly 70% of the states (33) that had ratified the Amendment by 1873.252" Some people might forget that the 1870s was a relatively progressive time in regards to race relations in the U.S.--with Blacks being given the right to vote nationwide in the U.S., with anti-miscegenation laws being repealed or unenforced in many U.S. states, and with a serious but ultimately unsuccessful attempt in the U.S. Congress to desegregate the schools in the U.S. in 1874-1875. Also, 2018 France actually would be able to defeat the 1870 U.S. in a war due to its superior technology and larger population.
a) Both 1870 and 2018 in regards to China.
b) Interesting and thanks. I knew there was some progress before the roll-back with the Jim Crow laws and possibly it could be maintained more successfully here.
c) Yes France could, if it can maintain forces in N America. How many ports outside France can handle French ships? Even more to the point they can defeat the US military but winning the war would be only the 1st step. How to win the peace, especially if your just alienate many people by invading them? Not to mention a prolonged and costly operation in N America isn't going to be popular either in the rest of the 1870 world or in 2018 France.
|
|