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Post by guyverman1990 on Jan 24, 2016 3:44:08 GMT
Greetings once again my fellow members of this forum. Today I would like to ask another favorite question of mine regarding alternate history. This just so happens to be a big one that goes quite far back with drastic effects on the course of history. What if The Carthaginian Forces under Hannibal Barca in the Second Punic war manage to defeat Rome and Carthage itself becomes the dominant power in the Mediterranean?
If that were the case, the world today will be such a different place. The most notable differences would be that with Rome potentially crushed, the Roman's language of Latin will fall into decline rapidly and any language that it spawns would end up surviving near-non existent pockets over time, if not dying out completely. Therefore, the modern Romance Languages as we know them such as French, Spanish, Portuguese, ect. will cease to exist. Without Rome, the Celtic population of western Europe (which in our timeline was exterminated by Julius Caesar and other Roman generals) will survive and because of this, Celtic languages will likely occupy the areas of our timeline's present-day Romance languages.
Another thing to point out is the nature of Carthage as an Empire in comparison to Rome. Unlike Rome which was zealously militaristic and obsessed with territorial expansion and control of other peoples by force, Carthage primarily based itself on trade. Therefore, most cultures throughout Europe and the Mediterranean would have developed much more independently, with Carthage being a much friendlier neighbor, yet its influence would've still been strong in terms of trade, money language, law and exploration.
In addition, the Phoenicians were famously profound sailors and rather than conquering the land, Carthage would've done so with the seas instead. With that in mind, any of you should just try to imagine what the Carthaginians could accomplish if you gave them the 500+ years Rome had to develop their skills at seafaring. I imagine they potentially could've circumnavigated most if not all of Africa and maybe even sailed to the New World itself...
Does any of this sound feasible to you? If so, fill me in ladies and gentlemen.
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Post by MinnesotaNationalist on Jan 24, 2016 4:12:41 GMT
see:
It's one of my favorites by them
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Post by guyverman1990 on Jan 24, 2016 5:08:57 GMT
see: It's one of my favorites by them I admit to be familiar with that as well, but that video only scratches the tip of the ice. Aren't you curious as to what other possibilities such a timeline could hold? |
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Post by MinnesotaNationalist on Jan 24, 2016 5:36:20 GMT
see: It's one of my favorites by them I admit to be familiar with that as well, but aren't you curious as to what other possibilities such a timeline could hold? I do, personally It's one of my favorite ideas as well (as well as countless different Europes that could have happened had the Huns behaved differently). But, the video is a good place to start to contemplate the idea. I know on another video of theirs, before that video came out, Me and couple other different commenters were talking about what would happen. I can't quite find the conversation now (a lot of videos and a lot of comments to go through) |
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Post by punkrockbowler805 on Jan 25, 2016 7:29:07 GMT
"We're the Carthaginians. We trade and occasionally do human sacrifice."
"We're the Aztecs. We do a lot of human sacrifice and some trade."
"We have glass beads, purple dyes, Cornwall tin, iron, horses, some people we don't like."
"We have obsidian, which is a really black rock you can make swords with...rubber, which is this plant you can make handballs with and then sacrifice the losers...cocoa and chili which we think taste good together...so...those for the metal, horses and people you don't like sounds like a good swap. Its funny...we have this legend about our god coming from the east but you do not look like him at all."
"No, we're people. We had these enemies the Romans we kind of kicked the ass of and now their land is mostly run by our Celtic friends. They might've tried that, since when their Emperors died of lead poisoning or STDs or assasination they tried to make it sound nicer by saying they'd become gods. Our god is Baal. We sacrifice to him."
"Prisoner of war?"
"Uh...well..."
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Post by guyverman1990 on Jan 26, 2016 22:13:34 GMT
"We're the Carthaginians. We trade and occasionally do human sacrifice." "We're the Aztecs. We do a lot of human sacrifice and some trade." "We have glass beads, purple dyes, Cornwall tin, iron, horses, some people we don't like." "We have obsidian, which is a really black rock you can make swords with...rubber, which is this plant you can make handballs with and then sacrifice the losers...cocoa and chili which we think taste good together...so...those for the metal, horses and people you don't like sounds like a good swap. Its funny...we have this legend about our god coming from the east but you do not look like him at all." "No, we're people. We had these enemies the Romans we kind of kicked the ass of and now their land is mostly run by our Celtic friends. They might've tried that, since when their Emperors died of lead poisoning or STDs or assasination they tried to make it sound nicer by saying they'd become gods. Our god is Baal. We sacrifice to him." "Prisoner of war?" "Uh...well..." The Aztecs were about 1500 years apart from the Carthaginians, but they could've always encountered other similar Native American cultures in that region from the same time period as them. |
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Post by punkrockbowler805 on Jan 27, 2016 1:34:19 GMT
Well, I meant if they survived and then met them later.
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Post by eDGT on Jan 27, 2016 2:51:23 GMT
I like the idea of Carthage allowing the Gallic tribes to flood back into northern Italy once Rome was torched, that is unless the Hellenes, Samnites, and Etruscans which still existed didn't just establish their own states.
A powerful southern Gallic tribe such as the Arverni could, if they managed to centralise a large enough area, become excellent resource suppliers to Carthage by way of Massilia and the Greeks. So whilst Carthage would get rich, Gaul and the Arverni could trade for things they need, like slaves who know a thing or two about reading, writing, ship building, advanced metallurgy, statecraft.
So basically a Gallic realm could eclipse Carthage after a few centuries.
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Post by guyverman1990 on Jan 27, 2016 5:51:38 GMT
Well, I meant if they survived and then met them later. At least a distant, indirect off-shoot of Carthage could met the Aztecs in such a timeline's equivalent of the 1500's. Even if Carthage did get to the New World before collapsing like Rome in our timeline, whatever people they meet would not be Aztecs, because it would still be to early. |
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Post by guyverman1990 on Mar 14, 2016 4:41:36 GMT
First of all, I apologize for yet another double post, but I just want to spark new life into this thread. Without Rome, the Western hemisphere would not be able to borrow their alphabet and instead that of the Phoenicians'. Yes I now that most of the world's alphabet systems are derived from Phoenician including the Roman Alphabet, but I'm talking about the alphabet itself as the Phoenicians used it, much closer to its original unaltered form. Like most Semetic scripts, the Punic alphabet had no vowels, only consonants and was written from right to left.
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Post by Krall on Mar 15, 2016 19:16:33 GMT
First of all, I apologize for yet another double post, but I just want to spark new life into this thread. Without Rome, the Western hemisphere would not be able to borrow their alphabet and instead that of the Phoenicians'. Yes I now that most of the world's alphabet systems are derived from Phoenician including the Roman Alphabet, but I'm talking about the alphabet itself as the Phoenicians used it, much closer to its original unaltered form. Like most Semetic scripts, the Punic alphabet had no vowels, only consonants and was written from right to left. Hmm, Carthage fought the Second Punic War alongside a number of Greek states - if they won the war and regained their former territories then we would likely see increased contact between Carthage and the Greek states, as well as increase Carthaginian influence over the Greeks as they aid their allies and fill the power vacuum left by Rome. If this leads to a mingling of Carthaginian and Greek culture then one might adopt the other's alphabet, at least in part, for example Carthage might adopt the idea of using some letters of their alphabet as vowels by using them as matres lectiones (consonants that are sometimes vowels). I'm not certain how Carthage would develop after succeeding in the Second Punic War. A lot of people seem to assume they'd remain a mercantile thalassocracy, rarely conquering and mainly exerting influence through client states, but with the example of Hannibal's conquests in Iberia it might be that they begin to adopt a more direct method of administration. The first to lose their independence to such a policy would most likely be the two Numidian kingdom. They're very close to Carthage itself, and thus a major threat, and I doubt Carthage would be willing to trust the kings of the two kingdoms as one openly supported Rome and the other used to. I'm not sure whether they'd be inclined to conquer much beyond that though, other than their former territories in the Mediterranean and various coastal cities. |
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Post by guyverman1990 on Mar 16, 2016 18:30:59 GMT
First of all, I apologize for yet another double post, but I just want to spark new life into this thread. Without Rome, the Western hemisphere would not be able to borrow their alphabet and instead that of the Phoenicians'. Yes I now that most of the world's alphabet systems are derived from Phoenician including the Roman Alphabet, but I'm talking about the alphabet itself as the Phoenicians used it, much closer to its original unaltered form. Like most Semetic scripts, the Punic alphabet had no vowels, only consonants and was written from right to left. Hmm, Carthage fought the Second Punic War alongside a number of Greek states - if they won the war and regained their former territories then we would likely see increased contact between Carthage and the Greek states, as well as increase Carthaginian influence over the Greeks as they aid their allies and fill the power vacuum left by Rome. If this leads to a mingling of Carthaginian and Greek culture then one might adopt the other's alphabet, at least in part, for example Carthage might adopt the idea of using some letters of their alphabet as vowels by using them as matres lectiones (consonants that are sometimes vowels). I'm not certain how Carthage would develop after succeeding in the Second Punic War. A lot of people seem to assume they'd remain a mercantile thalassocracy, rarely conquering and mainly exerting influence through client states, but with the example of Hannibal's conquests in Iberia it might be that they begin to adopt a more direct method of administration. The first to lose their independence to such a policy would most likely be the two Numidian kingdom. They're very close to Carthage itself, and thus a major threat, and I doubt Carthage would be willing to trust the kings of the two kingdoms as one openly supported Rome and the other used to. I'm not sure whether they'd be inclined to conquer much beyond that though, other than their former territories in the Mediterranean and various coastal cities. Also, do you imagine that The Phoenician's language would be a profound influence on the languages of Europe the same way Latin was in OTL? If so, various European languages would adopt primarily merchandile and nautical terms from Phoenicians. In the void left by Latin, I imagine that in Iberia and Sicily, Semetic languages derived from Phoenician would continue to occupy those territories. |
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Post by Krall on Mar 16, 2016 23:00:38 GMT
Also, do you imagine that The Phoenician's language would be a profound influence on the languages of Europe the same way Latin was in OTL? If so, various European languages would adopt primarily merchandile and nautical terms from Phoenicians. In the void left by Latin, I imagine that in Iberia and Sicily, Semetic languages derived from Phoenician would continue to occupy those territories. Most likely yes, in Sicily, Magna Graecia/Southern Italy, Iberia, and North Africa, at least. If Carthage expands its empire further and gains a level of cultural prestige such that people outside of their empire start to adopt their ways, then places beyond that might develop languages based off of the Punic language. |
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Post by Rhand on Mar 17, 2016 17:41:25 GMT
One thing: would any of this matter at all after the Migrations happen in around the 400s AD? Certainly we would not have anything similar to Christianity, and Europe would be a more culturally fractious place, but other than that, I don't see much that would be different.
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Post by Krall on Mar 17, 2016 18:21:37 GMT
One thing: would any of this matter at all after the Migrations happen in around the 400s AD? Certainly we would not have anything similar to Christianity, and Europe would be a more culturally fractious place, but other than that, I don't see much that would be different. Of course it would matter - the entire history of Europe (and thus the world, at least later on) would be different. The Migration Period didn't wipe away all previous history and start afresh. |
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Post by guyverman1990 on Mar 18, 2016 1:38:47 GMT
Also, do you imagine that The Phoenician's language would be a profound influence on the languages of Europe the same way Latin was in OTL? If so, various European languages would adopt primarily merchandile and nautical terms from Phoenicians. In the void left by Latin, I imagine that in Iberia and Sicily, Semetic languages derived from Phoenician would continue to occupy those territories. Most likely yes, in Sicily, Magna Graecia/Southern Italy, Iberia, and North Africa, at least. If Carthage expands its empire further and gains a level of cultural prestige such that people outside of their empire start to adopt their ways, then places beyond that might develop languages based off of the Punic language. As I stated before, Carthage was NOT the conquering type of Empire Rome was in OTL. But it would expand its trade influences and transform into a giant seafaring business cartel. |
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Post by MinnesotaNationalist on Mar 18, 2016 2:22:30 GMT
Most likely yes, in Sicily, Magna Graecia/Southern Italy, Iberia, and North Africa, at least. If Carthage expands its empire further and gains a level of cultural prestige such that people outside of their empire start to adopt their ways, then places beyond that might develop languages based off of the Punic language. As I stated before, Carthage was NOT the conquering type of Empire Rome was in OTL. But it would expand its trade influences and transform into a giant seafaring business cartel. Expansion isn't limited to conquering. Carthage might not have been the conquering type, but they sure were the colonizing type with one of the earliest examples of a colonial empire in the world. And if Carthage did make connections via trade and became the dominant trade power, the Punic language (Phoenician, more properly) would definitely be the most used language on the Mediterranean shores |
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Post by guyverman1990 on Mar 18, 2016 4:48:47 GMT
As I stated before, Carthage was NOT the conquering type of Empire Rome was in OTL. But it would expand its trade influences and transform into a giant seafaring business cartel. Expansion isn't limited to conquering. Carthage might not have been the conquering type, but they sure were the colonizing type with one of the earliest examples of a colonial empire in the world. And if Carthage did make connections via trade and became the dominant trade power, the Punic language (Phoenician, more properly) would definitely be the most used language on the Mediterranean shores Where would've they realistically "expanded" expanded their empire? I imagine they would've encountered the Nok or Bantu peoples on Africa's Atlantic coast. |
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Post by MinnesotaNationalist on Mar 18, 2016 5:33:29 GMT
Expansion isn't limited to conquering. Carthage might not have been the conquering type, but they sure were the colonizing type with one of the earliest examples of a colonial empire in the world. And if Carthage did make connections via trade and became the dominant trade power, the Punic language (Phoenician, more properly) would definitely be the most used language on the Mediterranean shores Where would've they realistically "expanded" expanded their empire? I imagine they would've encountered the Nok or Bantu peoples on Africa's Atlantic coast. They could have kept colonizing up the Iberian and Europe Coasts up to, say, Brest, and maybe down the African to Dakar (or possibly even further), and maybe if they were to discover the New World, build some colonies there. They'd certainly make sure to make territories a subject of her's through indirect control They'd also probably like to take the homeland of the Phoenicians in Lebanon (they already had a policy of taking over Phoenician colonies of Tyre and Sidon while they were walling out of power |
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Post by Krall on Mar 18, 2016 7:31:02 GMT
As I stated before, Carthage was NOT the conquering type of Empire Rome was in OTL. But it would expand its trade influences and transform into a giant seafaring business cartel. Yes, but things change. Carthage being a mercantile trade empire certainly didn't stop Hannibal conquering huge swathes of Iberia in its name, and I can think of no good reason why Carthage would explicitly avoid conquest in the future. |
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