|
Post by mullauna on Dec 2, 2017 8:42:05 GMT
Napoleon III-ruled France from just before the Franco-Prussian War is teleported by the ASB to the same point in 2017. the ASB makes it so there are no epidemics.
How does the French government and people react to the modern world and modern Western beliefs and values?
|
|
|
Post by steve59 on Dec 2, 2017 14:04:26 GMT
Napoleon III-ruled France from just before the Franco-Prussian War is teleported by the ASB to the same point in 2017. the ASB makes it so there are no epidemics. How does the French government and people react to the modern world and modern Western beliefs and values? With serious panic and confusion I would expect. Napoleon III wasn't an absolute dictator like his uncle so his regime might adjust and survive, although its prestige would be seriously hit by what 'happened' in 1870-71. If he resigned in favour of his son there might be enough support for the dynasty to carry on. However its going to have a severe shock in just about every way. Is it just continental France and Corsica [presumably] or does the colonial empire come along? If not what's the status of France 2017's overseas departments which will have a lot more technology. If the entire colonial empire comes along than that really changes NW Africa especially.
|
|
|
Post by mullauna on Dec 2, 2017 15:03:14 GMT
It's gonna be unpleasant for the well meaning 2017 activists descending on ISOT'd France and it's empire... the 1870 French people are much more willing to hurt them if they try to force modern values.
The reception of radical Islam in French Africa will certainly be messy.
|
|
|
Post by steve59 on Dec 2, 2017 22:23:29 GMT
It's gonna be unpleasant for the well meaning 2017 activists descending on ISOT'd France and it's empire... the 1870 French people are much more willing to hurt them if they try to force modern values. The reception of radical Islam in French Africa will certainly be messy. Ah so, all the empire comes along. That is going to be messy. I can see pressure for action to remove the French colonial presence, which especially since its accompanied by a fairly substantial settler population, will not be popular with the French government. However provided an significant 2017 state supports such a move the French won't be in much position to resist. This might just be Egypt, [At least Gadaffi has gone otherwise he might try and make it some sort of jihad and with his army that would be a massacre.] As well as along the NW coast, although not sure if Tunisia and Morocco were even protectorates at this point so it might not apply to them come to think of it there is the French possessions in Senegal and Ivory Coast although not sure how much they had spread inland. One other point that's just occurred. The World Cup draw has been made for Russia next year and includes France, Morocco, Tunisia, Senegal and Ivory Coast so between 3 and 5 of those states are going to be missing or seriously affected. Although some of the African states might be able to organise exile teams from players performing for teams outside the affected area plus if their international team was abroad at the time of the event. However its going to cause a lot of confusion at the very least.
|
|
|
Post by MinnesotaNationalist on Dec 2, 2017 23:20:14 GMT
A couple major points I'd like to bring up: The first is that Cosmopolitan France in 1872 had a population of just over 36-38 million (sources vary), with, let's say, another three million for the overseas possessions. This would place France at about 40 million people, compared to Germany that has twice the population of them. I think having a Frenchmen fall asleep in 1870 and wake up the next day to find out that Germany has suddenly been united and have a population that's twice France's would be scared out of his mind at that alone.
The other major point is that said Frenchmen would quickly learn that they're supposedly in an international organization with them, one that clearly Germany would be dominating now that France has lost 20 million from modern day, would also not come across very well.
|
|
|
Post by mullauna on Dec 3, 2017 17:13:44 GMT
Does 1870 Indochina come along too?
|
|
|
Post by steve59 on Dec 3, 2017 20:40:10 GMT
Does 1870 Indochina come along too? That's really your decision as the originator of the thread. Checking Wiki, see French_Indochina in the 19th_century, they had a good chunk of Vietnam by that time. Also a protectorate over the kingdom of Cambodia, although whether protectorates are included again is up to you as arguably their not formlly part of the French empire. If they are there are probably other areas in Africa to be added as well.
|
|
|
Post by mullauna on Dec 4, 2017 0:43:43 GMT
Even those who oppose N III in France will be horribly reactionary by 2017 standards, so what kind of government can the EU establish to replace Napoleon. I doubt that many 2017 people will tolerate the 1870'ers views of the role of women.
|
|
|
Post by steve59 on Dec 4, 2017 13:20:58 GMT
Even those who oppose N III in France will be horribly reactionary by 2017 standards, so what kind of government can the EU establish to replace Napoleon. I doubt that many 2017 people will tolerate the 1870'ers views of the role of women. Who's forces are they going to use? If an international body that claims to control France suddenly appears and starts issuing orders that will put Frence backs up even if those orders aren't ones that many 1870 French are likely to find unpleasant. Any attempt to impose modern European standards on the down-timers will face opposition and almost certainly need at least a demonstration of military power to get anywhere. True 2017 forces are massively more powerful but if we're talking about occupying much of France, which has a large army and OTL after the defeat of the imperial army the new republic organised a fair amount of guerilla resistance. Especially presuming the up-timers would be using 2017 rules of engagement that would need a hell of a lot of troops.
|
|
|
Post by futurist on Oct 18, 2018 2:05:39 GMT
Napoleon III-ruled France from just before the Franco-Prussian War is teleported by the ASB to the same point in 2017. the ASB makes it so there are no epidemics. How does the French government and people react to the modern world and modern Western beliefs and values? Does this include Algeria (which was already officially a part of France back then)?
|
|
|
Post by mullauna on Oct 18, 2018 9:03:15 GMT
yes
|
|
|
Post by futurist on Oct 23, 2018 22:35:56 GMT
OK. Anyway, France might be given an ultimatum by the U.S. and other European countries to provide a roadmap towards abandoning its colonies. It wouldn't necessarily have to be immediate, but it would have to eventually be done; or, at the very least, plebiscites should be held in France's colonies to determine their fate. When Algeria, Vietnam, et cetera have been independent from French rule for several decades, I don't think that the other Western Powers would be particularly willing to tell 1870 France "Yeah, France gave up these colonies several decades ago, but you're welcome to reclaim them!"
In addition to the colonies issue (and really, I could certainly see the other Western powers using military force to force 1870 France to give up its colonies), 1870 France is probably going to suffer from an extreme culture shock. Homosexual acts were legal in 1870 France, but same-sex marriage certainly wasn't and women's suffrage didn't exist in France back then. Thus, as France industrializes and tries to rapidly catch up with the other Western powers, it might also try extremely hard to keep Western cultural influences out of France.
|
|
|
Post by steve59 on Oct 24, 2018 14:56:43 GMT
OK. Anyway, France might be given an ultimatum by the U.S. and other European countries to provide a roadmap towards abandoning its colonies. It wouldn't necessarily have to be immediate, but it would have to eventually be done; or, at the very least, plebiscites should be held in France's colonies to determine their fate. When Algeria, Vietnam, et cetera have been independent from French rule for several decades, I don't think that the other Western Powers would be particularly willing to tell 1870 France "Yeah, France gave up these colonies several decades ago, but you're welcome to reclaim them!" In addition to the colonies issue (and really, I could certainly see the other Western powers using military force to force 1870 France to give up its colonies), 1870 France is probably going to suffer from an extreme culture shock. Homosexual acts were legal in 1870 France, but same-sex marriage certainly wasn't and women's suffrage didn't exist in France back then. Thus, as France industrializes and tries to rapidly catch up with the other Western powers, it might also try extremely hard to keep Western cultural influences out of France.
They might be willing to intervene or at least threaten to to force Napeoleon's arm on the issue to stop other groups doing so. Assorted Muslim factors, including multiple groups of religious extremists would seek to get involved as might well Putin to get influence in such areas. Also China might seek to secure a friendly Vietnam by deposing the French colonists.
There's going to be a hell of a lot of social issues that 1870 France and the rest of the west find themselves on different sides on. As well as the simple power of modern technology and the need to quarantine France until disease control issues are in place.
|
|
|
Post by mullauna on Oct 25, 2018 3:12:25 GMT
What happens to LGBTIQ+ and feminist activists when they go to enter 1870 France? Nothing pleasant, i suspect...
|
|
|
Post by futurist on Oct 27, 2018 0:06:35 GMT
What happens to LGBTIQ+ and feminist activists when they go to enter 1870 France? Nothing pleasant, i suspect... Yeah, that's the most likely scenario. However, French people would still see some references to women's rights and LGBT rights on television after France will modernize and acquire TVs en masse in this scenario. Of course, this could make French people more hesitant to watch foreign TV channels in this TL given the extremely massive cultural gap between them and the rest of the West in this TL.
|
|
|
Post by futurist on Oct 27, 2018 0:09:20 GMT
OK. Anyway, France might be given an ultimatum by the U.S. and other European countries to provide a roadmap towards abandoning its colonies. It wouldn't necessarily have to be immediate, but it would have to eventually be done; or, at the very least, plebiscites should be held in France's colonies to determine their fate. When Algeria, Vietnam, et cetera have been independent from French rule for several decades, I don't think that the other Western Powers would be particularly willing to tell 1870 France "Yeah, France gave up these colonies several decades ago, but you're welcome to reclaim them!" In addition to the colonies issue (and really, I could certainly see the other Western powers using military force to force 1870 France to give up its colonies), 1870 France is probably going to suffer from an extreme culture shock. Homosexual acts were legal in 1870 France, but same-sex marriage certainly wasn't and women's suffrage didn't exist in France back then. Thus, as France industrializes and tries to rapidly catch up with the other Western powers, it might also try extremely hard to keep Western cultural influences out of France.
1. They might be willing to intervene or at least threaten to to force Napeoleon's arm on the issue to stop other groups doing so. Assorted Muslim factors, including multiple groups of religious extremists would seek to get involved as might well Putin to get influence in such areas. Also China might seek to secure a friendly Vietnam by deposing the French colonists.
2. There's going to be a hell of a lot of social issues that 1870 France and the rest of the west find themselves on different sides on. As well as the simple power of modern technology and the need to quarantine France until disease control issues are in place.
1. Agreed with all of this. Also, I wonder if Morocco could get a temporary protectorate over Algeria in this TL (Morocco wasn't colonized by the French yet and thus will remain its 2017 self) so that it could have some time to cultivate a native Algerian elite. 2. Completely agreed with all of this. Of course, I would think that the West would also aim to quickly promote mass vaccinations in France in order to help the French people fight diseases.
|
|
|
Post by mullauna on Oct 27, 2018 8:38:25 GMT
1870 French people will be much more willing to hurt, torture or kill modern LGBT/feminist/anti-racism activists if they waltz into 1870 France and try to force things than 2018 people.
|
|
|
Post by futurist on Oct 28, 2018 23:42:32 GMT
1870 French people will be much more willing to hurt, torture or kill modern LGBT/feminist/anti-racism activists if they waltz into 1870 France and try to force things than 2018 people. Agreed, unfortunately. Indeed, this shows just how malleable people's political attitudes can be. After all, I don't think that the genetics of the French population changed very much (on average, of course) between 1870 and 2018 and yet there was an extremely massive change in social attitudes in France during these almost 150 years. If such a shift was possible in France and the West over a 150-year time period, one would hope that such a shift would also be possible elsewhere in the world over the years and decades.
|
|
|
Post by mullauna on Oct 28, 2018 23:54:33 GMT
1870 French people will be much more willing to hurt, torture or kill modern LGBT/feminist/anti-racism activists if they waltz into 1870 France and try to force things than 2018 people. Agreed, unfortunately. Indeed, this shows just how malleable people's political attitudes can be. After all, I don't think that the genetics of the French population changed very much (on average, of course) between 1870 and 2018 and yet there was an extremely massive change in social attitudes in France during these almost 150 years. If such a shift was possible in France and the West over a 150-year time period, one would hope that such a shift would also be possible elsewhere in the world over the years and decades. My school's materials on pre-1960s America has to point out to current students why people who wanted to protest segregation couldn't just form a proto-Antifa chapter as they were at serious risk of being killed by fanatics. Similarly I deal with female students that look at the photos of schoolgirls in Brooklyn staging a protest against being forced to wear dresses to school and they act like it was the 1970s and i have to point out that the photos are from 1940 and it was *because* it was Brooklyn that they could stand up for their rights. Had they been girls in the Mid-West or Deep South protesting against wearing dresses, it would have been a lot less safe for them, there would have been a lot more backlash and repression, and a blind eye would have been turned to their male classmates committing sexual violence to keep them in line.
|
|
|
Post by futurist on Oct 28, 2018 23:56:23 GMT
Yes, coercion is certainly an extremely serious problem when there is large-scale opposition to progressive change. Indeed, I suspect that women's rights activists, LGBT rights activists, and atheists face similar threats and problems in certain parts of the world--such as much of the Muslim world--nowadays.
|
|