What if the Aztecs and Mayans developed firearms?

[guyverman1990]

Hi! 

I'm Guyverman1990 and I'm new on this forum. Alternate history is something that really captivates me and I just thought I would like to join this community.

To start out I would like to explore a particular what-if that really intrigues me. That being how could have peoples such as the Mayans, Aztecs or any Mesoamerican culture realistically developed gunpowder and eventually firearms, or at least something along the lines of it? What circumstances could've it been created under and what impact would that have on those peoples in the long run? Would've they been able to resist European colonialism, which turn lead them to be able to develop colonial empires of their own akin to that of Europe's own in our timeline?

Feel free to elaborate and make further speculations on my idea. I hope to have a lot of fun.

[Krall]

There was a thread over on AH.com that discussed the realism of firearms in a bronze age society, and it was generally agreed that firearms were possible (not modern stuff, of course, but muskets, arquebuses, cannons, mortars definitely). However, it looks like only the Inca had developed to the point where metals were used for something other than jewellery/adornment, and even then it doesn't look like the use of bronze was as widespread as it was in the Bronze Age in the Old World.

Getting gunpowder would at least allow for things like bombs and mines, like how the Chinese used it early on. Proper firearms would require much more advanced and widespread metallurgy though. That said one-use disposable mortars might be possible, and it might be possible to dig a mortar barrel into the ground, put some gunpowder and a fuse in, place a projectile on top, seal the edges around the projectile with mud/clay, then light the fuse for a highly inaccurate one-use mortar. And sapping walls with bombs would be possible, of course.

[guyverman1990]

Dec 16, 2015 20:04:57 GMT Krall said:

There was a thread over on AH.com that discussed the realism of firearms in a bronze age society, and it was generally agreed that firearms were possible (not modern stuff, of course, but muskets, arquebuses, cannons, mortars definitely). However, it looks like only the Inca had developed to the point where metals were used for something other than jewellery/adornment, and even then it doesn't look like the use of bronze was as widespread as it was in the Bronze Age in the Old World.

Getting gunpowder would at least allow for things like bombs and mines, like how the Chinese used it early on. Proper firearms would require much more advanced and widespread metallurgy though. That said one-use disposable mortars might be possible, and it might be possible to dig a mortar barrel into the ground, put some gunpowder and a fuse in, place a projectile on top, seal the edges around the projectile with mud/clay, then light the fuse for a highly inaccurate one-use mortar. And sapping walls with bombs would be possible, of course.

Thanks for the reply man In addition, The Mesoamericans could've easily been able to create rockets of some sort if you give them enough time, because metals are not a necessity to produce a rocket. Btw, when it comes to who would be the first to develop gunpowder of all Native American cultures, I'd say that the most likely candidate would be the Mayans since they were already a somewhat scientific minded people (even if it was only primitive science).

[Krall]

Dec 16, 2015 20:56:26 GMT guyverman1990 said:

Thanks for the reply man In addition, The Mesoamericans could've easily been able to create rockets of some sort if you give them enough time, because metals are not a necessity to produce a rocket. Btw, when it comes to who would be the first to develop gunpowder of all Native American cultures, I'd say that the most likely candidate would be the Mayans since they were already a somewhat scientific minded people (even if it was only primitive science).

Ah yes, rockets would be possible, though they may not have a great range. Certainly something like the Korean Hwacha would be possible.

I'm not sure if the Mayans would be the most likely to develop gunpowder - the Chinese hit on it by chance, and access to raw materials is much more important than "scientific-mindedness". Saltpeter seems to be the main thing, as early Chinese gunpowder contained too little to be explosive. A decent, easily accessible source of gunpowder is guano, and from glancing at the Wikipedia article it looks like Andean peoples have been collecting the stuff for well over 1000 years.

So, fire arrow- and basic bronze mortar-equipped Incans look feasible.

That said, the Incan empire was pretty damn young at the time of European contact, and we want the discovery of gunpowder to be far back enough to get into widespread use, if possible. So it's possible that instead of finding a unified Incan empire, the Europeans find a bunch of warring, gunpowder-equipped Andean city-states. In fact, making the Andean region politically diverse and often at war might be a good thing, as this would introduce massive pressures to improve military technology, which would influence the people of the region to start using gunpowder and bronze in military capacities.

As for how this would affect Europeans' attempts at conquest, I'm not sure it would totally save them. Certainly their reactions to firearms would be less "WHAT THE HECK IS THAT" and more "HOW DO YOU MAKE A CANNON THAT SMALL", and the Europeans would still have the advantages given by horses and steel.

Hmm... if the Incan empire isn't unified and the use of metals shifts from adornment to military, it's possible that the region would be less of a target for European conquest and colonisation. If the region isn't seen as some gold-rich land of plenty then they might just trade with the region - certainly warring Andean city-states would gladly trade for all the steel, horses, and firearms/cannons they can get, to gain an edge over their local enemies. I don't think they'd be able to reproduce European firearms, since they have yet to figure out steel, but they would most likely start developing their bronze arms along similar lines, possibly leading to fire lances and handcannons, as well as more sophisticated bronze artillery.

I'm really liking this idea, actually. I might make a map set in such a world!

[guyverman1990]

^To set things straight, keep in mind that the Mayans would still had access to the key ingredients through animal dung (sodium nitrate) and volcanic desposits (sulfur) and no to mention a plentiful amount of indigenous fruits (potassium) and even charcoal through simply a bonfire. If a culture like China could hit on gunpowder merely by chance, so can anybody. With that in mind, Mayan-produced gunpowder will spread to all neighboring pre-Colombian civilizations via trade like wildfire. The Incas would be no exception.

Regardless, I would like to see your efforts at such a timeline. Good luck!

[Krall]

True, though Andean people already had a good reason to be in extensive contact with guano - to use it as fertilizer - and the availability of materials doesn't necessarily matter as much as regular contact and experimentation. I have no idea whether the Maya had a quasi-alchemy system like the Chinese did, or whether they used guano and similar as fertilizer extensively too, so a discovery by them seems entirely plausible - the connection with the Andes and their use of guano just seemed like a quick, convenient, and plausible connection.

In the timeline I speculated about gunpowder would certainly not remain a "state secret" as it did in China, as I hoped to keep the Andes divided into many city-states, which makes it much more likely that the secret will slip out, and less likely that any given Andean state will consider it a state secret, if everyone in the region already knows about gunpowder. That'd mean it'd spread to other cultures in the area very quickly, who will no doubt refine production methods, come up with new ways to make gunpowders using the resources available to them, and better understand the science behind it.

So whilst the Andean peoples are the discoverers of gunpowder, the Maya could easily be its masters.

[guyverman1990]

Dec 17, 2015 1:54:07 GMT Krall said:

True, though Andean people already had a good reason to be in extensive contact with guano - to use it as fertilizer - and the availability of materials doesn't necessarily matter as much as regular contact and experimentation. I have no idea whether the Maya had a quasi-alchemy system like the Chinese did, or whether they used guano and similar as fertilizer extensively too, so a discovery by them seems entirely plausible - the connection with the Andes and their use of guano just seemed like a quick, convenient, and plausible connection.

In the timeline I speculated about gunpowder would certainly not remain a "state secret" as it did in China, as I hoped to keep the Andes divided into many city-states, which makes it much more likely that the secret will slip out, and less likely that any given Andean state will consider it a state secret, if everyone in the region already knows about gunpowder. That'd mean it'd spread to other cultures in the area very quickly, who will no doubt refine production methods, come up with new ways to make gunpowders using the resources available to them, and better understand the science behind it.

So whilst the Andean peoples are the discoverers of gunpowder, the Maya could easily be its masters.

As for primitive science, remember the Mayans did still have their extensively sophisticated calendar system and the medicine wheel. They were among the most, if not THE most scientific minded of all Native American groups. You also said how brand new the unified Incan Empire was at the time of European contact and you suggested that in your idea for an AU, they aren't so much, which is why the Europeans don't collectively target them for conquest over hordes of gold and instead perform trade with different groups to form trading alliances, which helped different factions gain an advantage over their enemies.

I think you should also keep in mind that for the longest time, even until the time of European contact, the Mayans were also several scattered city states who often went to war. So maybe the Europeans could've easily done the same with theoretical gunpowder-wielding, factionalized Mayans and they would accept European goods such as metal, horses and more advanced firearm capabilities to help conquer foes.

[oyid]

Keep in mind that the Mexica ("Aztec") and Mayan people sought mainly to capture enemies in battle , as commanded by their religion (mid-Mexico cultures learned it from the Mayans, who were influenced into it by their southernmost neighbors), so that while war as a whole had many uses for them, the main tactical objective in every battle was to take in prisoners. This meant that in many battles their advantage over the Spanish was dented somewhat by their reluctance to kill, which is relevant to this thread as the discovery of gunpowder would've been met with hesitation to use it in battle, as it's pretty much incredibly deadly With time this reluctance might be overcome, but it all depends on when exactly they make contact. Fireworks and other such non-combat applications would be more readily embraced by the sacrificial warrior peoples.

Also don't underestimate the Spaniard's utter disregard for indigenous life, especially in the early years, so while Cuzco and the mountainous regions of Peru might've been able to mount resistance, which could eventually bring about peace and trade, the rich coastal regions would almost certainly still be colonized.

[guyverman1990]

Dec 26, 2015 19:35:19 GMT oyid said:

Keep in mind that the Mexica ("Aztec") and Mayan people sought mainly to capture enemies in battle , as commanded by their religion (mid-Mexico cultures learned it from the Mayans, who were influenced into it by their southernmost neighbors), so that while war as a whole had many uses for them, the main tactical objective in every battle was to take in prisoners. This meant that in many battles their advantage over the Spanish was dented somewhat by their reluctance to kill, which is relevant to this thread as the discovery of gunpowder would've been met with hesitation to use it in battle, as it's pretty much incredibly deadly With time this reluctance might be overcome, but it all depends on when exactly they make contact. Fireworks and other such non-combat applications would be more readily embraced by the sacrificial warrior peoples.

Also don't underestimate the Spaniard's utter disregard for indigenous life, especially in the early years, so while Cuzco and the mountainous regions of Peru might've been able to mount resistance, which could eventually bring about peace and trade, the rich coastal regions would almost certainly still be colonized.

If that were the case, then gunpowder usage could've still been a more than effective defensive tactic as opposed to offense. Also, what would've Mesoamericans used for projectiles if they did not have metal?

[Krall]

Jan 7, 2016 22:24:41 GMT guyverman1990 said:

If that were the case, then gunpowder usage could've still been a more than effective defensive tactic as opposed to offense. Also, what would've Mesoamericans used for projectiles if they did not have metal?

They could've used stone or clay projectiles, though I imagine having gunpowder would've spurred on the development of metallurgy a fair bit. Without metal for barrels though, I imagine gunpowder would mostly be used for mines/explosives, rather than to propel projectiles - unless they hit on the idea of rocket-propelled arrows, which would work with flint and obsidian heads.