TheAven
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Exhausted. That is all.
Posts: 27
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Post by TheAven on Dec 17, 2015 2:59:53 GMT
Here's an article that might interest some of you: Macedonian PM open to dialogue on name dispute to end 24-year row with Greece
Author: Helena Smith, Patrick Kingsley
Would be quite an interesting development, wouldn't it? Especially considering there's also been talk of changing the arms (below). Ofc that might mean settling one dispute and opening another. They deal with "stealing" the name from Greece only to have Bulgaria accuse them of taking their arms
Proposed arms:
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Post by orvillethird on Dec 17, 2015 3:02:03 GMT
I can understand both sides, and I do wish both sides had a nice, long, calm, conversation to settle this.
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Post by AYC on Dec 17, 2015 5:34:17 GMT
What exactly is the history of Macedonia? As in, what did that linguistic/cultural region exist as prior to Yugoslavia?
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ruth
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pining for the fjords
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Post by ruth on Dec 17, 2015 6:32:13 GMT
If I understand correctly, there's a South Slavic continuum between the Serbo-Croatian, Macedonian, and Bulgarian languages. Pre-Yugoslavia and WWI, this was Ottoman terrain, and before then it was traded between Serbia, Bulgaria, and the Byzantines. Surprisingly, though you think of Macedonia as being Hellenized, there was a decent amount of Latin spoken here too, and their descendants survive as the Aromanians. Also there's some Albanians/Kosovars in the north, but we know strangely little about them, as the language isn't even mentioned in the historical annals until ridiculously late, like the 14th century.
But that about says it. Hellenized Macedonia -> some Romans -> slavic migrations -> suddenly Albania in the north -> the Serbians and Bulgarians play "keep away from the Byzantium" for a while -> Ottomans -> hitched a ride with Serbian independence -> WWI -> Yugoslavia.
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Post by MinnesotaNationalist on Dec 17, 2015 9:36:27 GMT
I wonder the possible compromise could be? Possibly Macedonia agreeing to calling itself FYROM?
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TheAven
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Exhausted. That is all.
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Post by TheAven on Dec 18, 2015 19:33:07 GMT
Well, "Upper Macedonia" is probably in the game. I've also seen suggestions like "North Macedonia", "Slavo-Macedonia" or "Paeonia" but also some joke names like "The Republic Formerly Known as The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" or just "Republic of Formeria"
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Post by Southpaw on Dec 18, 2015 22:02:41 GMT
If I understand correctly, there's a South Slavic continuum between the Serbo-Croatian, Macedonian, and Bulgarian languages. Pre-Yugoslavia and WWI, this was Ottoman terrain, and before then it was traded between Serbia, Bulgaria, and the Byzantines. Surprisingly, though you think of Macedonia as being Hellenized, there was a decent amount of Latin spoken here too, and their descendants survive as the Aromanians. Also there's some Albanians/Kosovars in the north, but we know strangely little about them, as the language isn't even mentioned in the historical annals until ridiculously late, like the 14th century. But that about says it. Hellenized Macedonia -> some Romans -> slavic migrations -> suddenly Albania in the north -> the Serbians and Bulgarians play "keep away from the Byzantium" for a while -> Ottomans -> hitched a ride with Serbian independence -> WWI -> Yugoslavia. Actually, the vernacular of what is today Macedonia were generally considered Bulgarian dialects until WW2. There is a dialect continuum, yes, but even today Bulgarian and Macedonian share numerous linguistic features which simply aren't found in Serbian.
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TheAven
New Member
Exhausted. That is all.
Posts: 27
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Post by TheAven on Dec 18, 2015 23:54:36 GMT
If I understand correctly, there's a South Slavic continuum between the Serbo-Croatian, Macedonian, and Bulgarian languages. Pre-Yugoslavia and WWI, this was Ottoman terrain, and before then it was traded between Serbia, Bulgaria, and the Byzantines. Surprisingly, though you think of Macedonia as being Hellenized, there was a decent amount of Latin spoken here too, and their descendants survive as the Aromanians. Also there's some Albanians/Kosovars in the north, but we know strangely little about them, as the language isn't even mentioned in the historical annals until ridiculously late, like the 14th century. But that about says it. Hellenized Macedonia -> some Romans -> slavic migrations -> suddenly Albania in the north -> the Serbians and Bulgarians play "keep away from the Byzantium" for a while -> Ottomans -> hitched a ride with Serbian independence -> WWI -> Yugoslavia. Actually, the vernacular of what is today Macedonia were generally considered Bulgarian dialects until WW2. There is a dialect continuum, yes, but even today Bulgarian and Macedonian share numerous linguistic features which simply aren't found in Serbian. Though that in itself is not really a factor that lets us categorize them. Czech took a LOT from German for example. Probably closer to it than some other Slavic languages like Polish or Russian.
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Post by MinnesotaNationalist on Dec 19, 2015 2:30:08 GMT
but also some joke names like "The Republic Formerly Known as The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" If they go that route, they need to make sure the Artist Formerly Known as Prince becomes the first President.
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Post by contraindicative on Dec 21, 2015 16:49:20 GMT
Actually, the vernacular of what is today Macedonia were generally considered Bulgarian dialects until WW2. There is a dialect continuum, yes, but even today Bulgarian and Macedonian share numerous linguistic features which simply aren't found in Serbian. Though that in itself is not really a factor that lets us categorize them. Czech took a LOT from German for example. Probably closer to it than some other Slavic languages like Polish or Russian. As someone who is learning Czech via immersion, German influence in Czech took a sharp decline after 1945 and has never really recovered. Czech shares numerous similarities with other slavic languages (though paradoxically is probably closer to Serbian and Russian in some ways than it is to Polish - bloody awkward poles...). German words meanwhile are generally dialect - eg Salina (with a hacek on the S so 'sh' sound) is in Brno, Moravia, the word for a Tram (Tramvaj in standard/common Czech as they speak in Prague). Why? From 'Elektrische Linie' of course... Contrast this with Hungarian, which has a good portion of it's vocabulary formed of German loanwords (Kupplung for 'clutch' for example). Fun aside, the first electrically lit theatre in Europe was in Brno!
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TheAven
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Exhausted. That is all.
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Post by TheAven on Dec 22, 2015 2:21:22 GMT
Though that in itself is not really a factor that lets us categorize them. Czech took a LOT from German for example. Probably closer to it than some other Slavic languages like Polish or Russian. As someone who is learning Czech via immersion, German influence in Czech took a sharp decline after 1945 and has never really recovered. Czech shares numerous similarities with other slavic languages (though paradoxically is probably closer to Serbian and Russian in some ways than it is to Polish - bloody awkward poles...). German words meanwhile are generally dialect - eg Salina (with a hacek on the S so 'sh' sound) is in Brno, Moravia, the word for a Tram (Tramvaj in standard/common Czech as they speak in Prague). Why? From 'Elektrische Linie' of course... Contrast this with Hungarian, which has a good portion of it's vocabulary formed of German loanwords (Kupplung for 'clutch' for example). Fun aside, the first electrically lit theatre in Europe was in Brno! As someone who's native tongues are Czech and English and who has eight years of studying German behind him (unavoidable in this country doesn't mean I speak it well but I get by) I can assure you the two languages are still painfully similar. Not so much with Hochdeutsch as with Austrian German. In pre-WWII times and for a decade or two after you would have even seen a very similar accent and pronunciation (especially on the "r"s). You might not notice as much with modern Czechs, what with the enormous English influence, but if you had a Czech grandmother, you'd probably have a lot more German-origin phrases up your sleeve. And there's a lot of transliterated German words floating around. Take brýle - glasses. Comes from "Brille". Even our cursing is half German what with "himl hergot" popping up now and again.
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Post by contraindicative on Dec 22, 2015 10:13:30 GMT
I've never heard anyone say that. Prdele, pici, ty vole... I get chuckles because my favourite is boze muj. Jebem ty boze is also good (and I know I'm using the slovak declension, but I like to fuck with people). xD
Where'd you learn your Czech Aven? Because there are definitely some major differences between Moravstina and Cestina, as well as formal and common czech that even I can tell after 4 months here. Dialect here in Brno is apparently very much something that doesn't sound like anything else - all my foreign/slavic speaking friends struggle with Moravian compared to standard/common Czech
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TheAven
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Exhausted. That is all.
Posts: 27
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Post by TheAven on Dec 22, 2015 15:08:10 GMT
I've never heard anyone say that. Prdele, pici, ty vole... I get chuckles because my favourite is boze muj. Jebem ty boze is also good (and I know I'm using the slovak declension, but I like to fuck with people). xD Where'd you learn your Czech Aven? Because there are definitely some major differences between Moravstina and Cestina, as well as formal and common czech that even I can tell after 4 months here. Dialect here in Brno is apparently very much something that doesn't sound like anything else - all my foreign/slavic speaking friends struggle with Moravian compared to standard/common Czech I was born in Prague so I have the local dialect which drives the grammatics-loving Moravians up the tree with my "-ej", "vo-" and "-ý"
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Post by contraindicative on Dec 22, 2015 17:22:38 GMT
yeah, your v's on words that begin with o and don't need it. Dirty dirty.
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TheAven
New Member
Exhausted. That is all.
Posts: 27
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Post by TheAven on Dec 23, 2015 2:51:11 GMT
yeah, your v's on words that begin with o and don't need it. Dirty dirty. Thank you, I try ^_^
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