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Post by heliosmegistos on Jan 10, 2016 6:23:56 GMT
What would the reactions and repercussions be of the permanent destruction and defilment of Mecca and Medina during the 12th century AD ?
I know it would be bad but what would the specifics be in theory ?
The main reason I ask is out of both simple curiosity and because the third Eosopoulou Basilissa of Byzantium/Rhomaion in my ASB Dawnverse setting is a angry, hateful and vengeful women who absolute hates Muslims due to the death of her mother in the Second Levantine Uprising during her grandmother Adrasteia I's reign (she conquered Syria and Palestine/the Holy Land just over two decades before hand. Holding it is a tough job for Rhomaion even with it's Persephonean Thematic Legions and the handful of Eosopoulou telepaths at the time) and is something of a Heliosian zealot so during the Third Levantine uprising that she herself largely caused she detored and marched down the Arabian penisular to send a message.
This same ruler in my setting previously torched Cairo as a punishment directed at the Fatimids for an attempt at retaking Palestine and did the same to Baghdad in an abortive campaign to take Mesopotamia from the failing but still potent Seljuks.
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Post by crustyoldssg on Feb 2, 2016 19:37:44 GMT
It would eliminate 99% of terrorist acts world wide
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Post by guyverman1990 on Feb 3, 2016 16:41:59 GMT
Even without Mecca and Medina Muslims will still want to get the last laugh.
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Post by Krall on Feb 3, 2016 17:03:50 GMT
It would eliminate 99% of terrorist acts world wide Excuse me, but what is this supposed to mean? |
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Post by crustyoldssg on Feb 3, 2016 18:13:23 GMT
it would effectively have ended Islam,responsible for 99% of terrorist acts
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Post by Krall on Feb 3, 2016 19:18:29 GMT
it would effectively have ended Islam,responsible for 99% of terrorist acts Why do you think Islam is solely responsible for 99% of terrorist acts? |
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Post by MinnesotaNationalist on Feb 3, 2016 19:45:38 GMT
If anything, by destroying Mecca and Medina, terrorism (and the 12th century equivalent) would go up. All Muslims would be in a blind fury for a thousand years and basically do anything to kill off the Christians who destroyed their most holy cities.
Neither city could be destroyed permanently, they're by far to important to be so. Mecca would probably at least attempted to be restored, Medina might just because a small town important to it's history. Both Sites could actually become holier do to this act, as it could represent Muslim Defiance to the Heathen.
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Post by abdulhadipasha on Feb 5, 2016 1:44:58 GMT
it would effectively have ended Islam,responsible for 99% of terrorist acts That is if you disregard centuries of Western anarchist & revolutionary terrorism, the IRA, French & Russian Revolutions, the Red Guard, the weekly mass-shootings in the USA, the Holocaust and all the massive European wars, etc. Terror bombing is terrorism, as are many of the things we've done in wars - we just don't call it that. Islamic terrorism is by far the most significant today, but that's a recent development, and it has some pretty compelling causes - total hopelessness brought on by ruthless exploitation and oppression by loathsome regimes that we prop up coupled with huge amounts of oil money given by those same regimes to fund terrorism, not to mention our undying support of a colonialist land-grab of Palestine. People in the USA go nuts over illegal (and for that matter legal) immigrants - imagine if Mexico seized a key part of the USA, send millions of people to settle it, and confined the Americans that lived there to miserable ghettos. A suicide bomber isn't a religious fanatic (usually), he's someone who has no hope for the future who gets a large cash payment for his family if he blows himself up. You can't win this with bombs or boots - we have to remove the causes of terrorism, which is all about oil & Israel. Get off Middle Eastern oil, dump the Saudis and all their ilk, and pressure Israel to come to terms with the Palestinians. We don't have the political will to do that, so buckle up because nothing's going to change. As far as the OP goes, destroying Mecca and Medina in the 12th c will make virtually no difference. It might cause a few tweaks in the development of Islam, but that's it. Judaism was entirely Jerusalem-focused and it's total destruction and the scattering of the entire Jewish population didn't destroy Judaism, so burning down two fairly insignificant cities isn't going to end Islam, although I suppose they'll have to change it to the Four Pillars instead of Five. Sunnism isn't dependent on a priesthood - it's like Protestantism where everyone has a direct relationship with God. Shiism would be easier to damage with force because of the intermediary position of the clergy between God and the faithful and the consequent reliance on state power. If you want to make a big difference to Islam, Egypt would be the place to hit. If that happened then the Turkic dynasties already in place would have no impetus to champion Sunni Orthodoxy and you'd see weird sufi-ish syncretic versions of Islam - much like the Ottomans before they occupied Syria and Egypt. |
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Post by abdulhadipasha on Feb 5, 2016 1:51:40 GMT
If anything, by destroying Mecca and Medina, terrorism (and the 12th century equivalent) would go up. All Muslims would be in a blind fury for a thousand years and basically do anything to kill off the Christians who destroyed their most holy cities. Neither city could be destroyed permanently, they're by far to important to be so. Mecca would probably at least attempted to be restored, Medina might just because a small town important to it's history. Both Sites could actually become holier do to this act, as it could represent Muslim Defiance to the Heathen. People destroyed Mecca all the time. Even the meteor rock in the Kaaba has been destroyed - the pieces are held together by metal bands. The Kaaba on earth is only a replica of the essential Kaaba that exists in that spot - it's a very Platonic conception. Destruction of the physical Kaaba is irrelevant, as are the Holy Cities other than to what is essentially a "sacrament" - the Hajj, which virtually no Muslims performed or perform today even with modern transportation. There wouldn't be any blind fury any more than you see Jewish terrorists suicide-bombing Italians for the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. Regaining control over Mecca & Medina would no doubt be a goal of Islamic states, but their loss would most likely be interpreted as God's punishment for their own failings. If anything, it might re-liberalize Islam by forcing it to adapt to new circumstances. |
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Post by eDGT on Feb 5, 2016 19:51:16 GMT
There wouldn't be any blind fury any more than you see Jewish terrorists suicide-bombing Italians for the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. Regaining control over Mecca & Medina would no doubt be a goal of Islamic states, but their loss would most likely be interpreted as God's punishment for their own failings. If anything, it might re-liberalize Islam by forcing it to adapt to new circumstances.That's an an interesting interpretation. Though the decision that scholars arrive at could be that their failing was martial weakness, to be corrected by tooling up and going ape shit on their infidel neighbours. The first Caliphate did work out rather well though, so the second one could follow a similar path. |
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Post by Krall on Feb 6, 2016 18:32:34 GMT
It would eliminate 99% of terrorist acts world wide it would effectively have ended Islam,responsible for 99% of terrorist acts Forum rule 4.3 states "You must not engage in prejudice or support prejudice on the basis of race, religion, gender, disability, or any other such category.", and I believe that these statements are in violation of that rule. As this is your first offence and the forum is still rather new I'm inclined to be lenient, and thus I shall give you a warning and increase your warning level by 50% for a period of two months. Be aware that further warnings that increase your warning level to 100% or more will result in a kick. We don't have a formal appeal system in place, but if you wish to dispute this decision please PM me or one of the Global Moderators. |
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Post by eDGT on Feb 6, 2016 20:26:15 GMT
Forum rule 4.3 states "You must not engage in prejudice or support prejudice on the basis of race, religion, gender, disability, or any other such category.", and I believe that these statements are in violation of that rule. As this is your first offence and the forum is still rather new I'm inclined to be lenient, and thus I shall give you a warning and increase your warning level by 50% for a period of two months. Be aware that further warnings that increase your warning level to 100% or more will result in a kick. We don't have a formal appeal system in place, but if you wish to dispute this decision please PM me or one of the Global Moderators. What bullshit, everyone knows that the IRA are Muslims! (joke)I do love the ability to change text colour on here. |
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Post by bytor on Feb 7, 2016 16:06:09 GMT
Forum rule 4.3 states "You must not engage in prejudice or support prejudice on the basis of race, religion, gender, disability, or any other such category.", and I believe that these statements are in violation of that rule. As this is your first offence and the forum is still rather new I'm inclined to be lenient, and thus I shall give you a warning and increase your warning level by 50% for a period of two months. Be aware that further warnings that increase your warning level to 100% or more will result in a kick. We don't have a formal appeal system in place, but if you wish to dispute this decision please PM me or one of the Global Moderators. What bullshit, everyone knows that the IRA are Muslims! (joke)I do love the ability to change text colour on here. Now wouldn't that be an interesting timeline - Northern Ireland conflict between the Shia Ulster Orangemen versus the Sunni Sinn Féin. I wonder what PoD it would take to make that happen with minimal derangement to everything else? |
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Post by lordroel on Feb 7, 2016 16:34:51 GMT
What bullshit, everyone knows that the IRA are Muslims! (joke)I do love the ability to change text colour on here. Now wouldn't that be an interesting timeline - Northern Ireland conflict between the Shia Ulster Orangemen versus the Sunni Sinn Féin. I wonder what PoD it would take to make that happen with minimal derangement to everything else? Do the not had problems enough. |
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Post by bytor on Feb 7, 2016 17:17:40 GMT
Now wouldn't that be an interesting timeline - Northern Ireland conflict between the Shia Ulster Orangemen versus the Sunni Sinn Féin. I wonder what PoD it would take to make that happen with minimal derangement to everything else? Do the not had problems enough. I'm not sure it would have made much of a difference to Irish history if they spend centuries of fighting between Shia and Sunni rather than Catholic and Protestant. I'm sure there's still be Guinness for wannabe beer snobs to proclaim their love of. :-) |
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Post by Krall on Feb 7, 2016 17:32:24 GMT
I'm not sure it would have made much of a difference to Irish history if they spend centuries of fighting between Shia and Sunni rather than Catholic and Protestant. I'm sure there's still be Guinness for wannabe beer snobs to proclaim their love of. :-) It'd have to be non-alcoholic, if Ireland's Muslim!  |
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Post by lordroel on Feb 7, 2016 17:38:49 GMT
I'm not sure it would have made much of a difference to Irish history if they spend centuries of fighting between Shia and Sunni rather than Catholic and Protestant. I'm sure there's still be Guinness for wannabe beer snobs to proclaim their love of. :-) It'd have to be non-alcoholic, if Ireland's Muslim! The horror, no please you cannot do that. |
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Post by bytor on Feb 7, 2016 17:44:50 GMT
It'd have to be non-alcoholic, if Ireland's Muslim! The horror, no please you cannot do that. The Mughals drank alcohol, and in a PoD where Islam expands to Ireland I'm sure we can also have the species of opinions that Muslims are allowed to drink in moderation. :-) |
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Post by lordroel on Feb 7, 2016 17:46:00 GMT
The horror, no please you cannot do that. The Mughals drank alcohol, and in a PoD where Islam expands to Ireland I'm sure we can also have the species of opinions that Muslims are allowed to drink in moderation. :-) I do not think the Irish Pubs as we now it will be Irish Pubs if you now what i mean. |
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Post by eDGT on Feb 7, 2016 23:34:46 GMT
The horror, no please you cannot do that. The Mughals drank alcohol, and in a PoD where Islam expands to Ireland I'm sure we can also have the species of opinions that Muslims are allowed to drink in moderation. :-) Well it's not like Irish priests ever listened to Rome either, Andalusia would see the Irish Muslims as crazy herteics as much as the Archbishops of Canterbury did. |
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