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Post by Kubo Caskett on Mar 14, 2016 2:18:36 GMT
Both Turkey and Japan at one in time were not part of the Western World though both pursed having more Western influence in the 19th century, however during the 20th century the former become more of it and the other well despite being somewhat more Westernized still isn't. I really find the whole Westernizing to the max in Turkey after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire to be a very fascinating (and somewhat disturbing one) given that the country went full 180 in terms of being non Western to almost completely Western.
Now I ask what if Japan was the one that pursed Westernization up to eleven and not Turkey and Turkey still retains being a "Middle-Eastern" nation? What would it take for that switcheroo to happen? |
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Post by Krall on Mar 14, 2016 17:02:19 GMT
I'm not entirely clear on what you mean here. Are you asking what if the economic fortunes of Turkey and Japan were reversed, so Turkey got a post-war economic miracle and became one of the largest and most advanced economies in the world whilst Japan didn't? Or are you asking what if how these countries are viewed in the west (i.e. how "western" they're considered by western countries) is reversed? Or are you asking something else?
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Post by Kubo Caskett on Mar 14, 2016 20:03:18 GMT
I'm not entirely clear on what you mean here. Are you asking what if the economic fortunes of Turkey and Japan were reversed, so Turkey got a post-war economic miracle and became one of the largest and most advanced economies in the world whilst Japan didn't? Or are you asking what if how these countries are viewed in the west (i.e. how "western" they're considered by western countries) is reversed? Or are you asking something else? Technically both, with an emphasis on their cultural status compared to the Western world; especially as both nations were the subjects of fascination to the West until one of them stopped being culturally different. |
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shamiboy
Global Moderator 
A happy mane
Posts: 51
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Post by shamiboy on Mar 14, 2016 21:33:05 GMT
Well, for Turkey they are two Pods for it to remain more "exotic" which are a Central Powers victory in WW1, or somehow afterwards the Ottoman Caliphate still existing after the Turkish War of independence. On Japan I don't know any sort of POD for that to happen other than a maybe a Decisive Darkness ending to World War Two.
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Post by Krall on Mar 14, 2016 21:38:06 GMT
Technically both, with an emphasis on their cultural status compared to the Western world; especially as both nations were the subjects of fascination to the West until one of them stopped being culturally different. I'm still a bit confused about this. How are you measuring how culturally different Turkey and Japan are from the west? Japan's differences may be more well-known, but I think that's more due to Japan's economic success rather than Turkey being culturally identical to western countries like the USA. |
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Post by Kubo Caskett on Mar 14, 2016 23:31:43 GMT
Technically both, with an emphasis on their cultural status compared to the Western world; especially as both nations were the subjects of fascination to the West until one of them stopped being culturally different. I'm still a bit confused about this. How are you measuring how culturally different Turkey and Japan are from the west? Japan's differences may be more well-known, but I think that's more due to Japan's economic success rather than Turkey being culturally identical to western countries like the USA. If you're talking about present day Turkey IOTL then yeah its quite close to the West than Japan is in terms of culture than it was over a century ago. One thing I know is that when Ataturk came to power in the 1920's he embarked on a policy of heavily westernizing the country (with some authoritarian measures to boot) and that in the process the Arabic-style script was replaced with a Latin-styled one.
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Post by Krall on Mar 14, 2016 23:55:33 GMT
If you're talking about present day Turkey IOTL then yeah its quite close to the West than Japan is in terms of culture than it was over a century ago. One thing I know is that when Ataturk came to power in the 1920's he embarked on a policy of heavily westernizing the country (with some authoritarian measures to boot) and that in the process the Arabic-style script was replaced with a Latin-styled one.
Sorry, I think you missed the main point of my post. How are we measuring/quantifying how western Turkey and Japan are? In other words, what specifically about Turkey's culture makes it more "western" than Japan's? |
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Post by Kubo Caskett on Mar 15, 2016 0:52:07 GMT
If you're talking about present day Turkey IOTL then yeah its quite close to the West than Japan is in terms of culture than it was over a century ago. One thing I know is that when Ataturk came to power in the 1920's he embarked on a policy of heavily westernizing the country (with some authoritarian measures to boot) and that in the process the Arabic-style script was replaced with a Latin-styled one.
Sorry, I think you missed the main point of my post. How are we measuring/quantifying how western Turkey and Japan are? In other words, what specifically about Turkey's culture makes it more "western" than Japan's? For one thing Turkey right now has always been trying to fit in with Europe with plans to join the EU, possibly due to the old reputation of being the "sick man of Europe" prior to WW1. Unless the joke's on me in that Turkey was always "Western" to begin with, Ottoman Empire or no Ottoman Empire. |
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Post by Krall on Mar 15, 2016 1:36:37 GMT
For one thing Turkey right now has always been trying to fit in with Europe with plans to join the EU, possibly due to the old reputation of being the "sick man of Europe" prior to WW1. Unless the joke's on me in that Turkey was always "Western" to begin with, Ottoman Empire or no Ottoman Empire. No, I'm asking what specific, concrete things are you referring to when you say Turkey is more western than Japan? At the moment I don't have any clearly defined or quantifiable ways to establish the cultural difference between the two. What is it about Turkey that is more "western" than Japan/What is it about Japan that is less "western" than Turkey? |
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Post by Kubo Caskett on Mar 15, 2016 1:49:44 GMT
For one thing Turkey right now has always been trying to fit in with Europe with plans to join the EU, possibly due to the old reputation of being the "sick man of Europe" prior to WW1. Unless the joke's on me in that Turkey was always "Western" to begin with, Ottoman Empire or no Ottoman Empire. No, I'm asking what specific, concrete things are you referring to when you say Turkey is more western than Japan? At the moment I don't have any clearly defined or quantifiable ways to establish the cultural difference between the two. What is it about Turkey that is more "western" than Japan/What is it about Japan that is less "western" than Turkey? Never mind, what I am asking is what PODs are necessary to have Japan trying to be part of a Western political and cultural union and Turkey not doing so ITTL. |
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Post by Krall on Mar 15, 2016 3:34:09 GMT
Never mind, what I am asking is what PODs are necessary to have Japan trying to be part of a Western political and cultural union and Turkey not doing so ITTL. The regional alliances the USA set up in Asia (SEATO, CENTO) springs to mind regarding Japan. Maybe Japan could be made part of a Pacific alliance designed to prevent the expansion of Communism (China in particular, but maybe also communist-aligned countries like Indonesia), possibly an expanded ANZUS alliance which would presumably be called PACTO. I'm not sure what it would take to have that happen though - perhaps China and North Korea win the Korean War, uniting the peninsula under a communist banner and thus being a massive threat to Japan due to their proximity? This PACTO would be a military alliance at first, but through military co-operation economic and political unions might evolve. Maybe a Pacific free movement and single market area, covering Japan, Australia, New Zealand, various Pacific island nations, maybe the Philippines and Papua New Guinea, and possibly the USA's Pacific territories? Due to the distances involved and the lack of clear cultural and historical connections between these countries it's unlikely to be as close as the EU, but it's a start. As for Turkey, the Ottoman Empire surviving, especially with territories in Mesopotamia and Arabia intact, would go a long way to making it less western and more distant from the rest of Europe culturally and politically. I don't know enough about the Ottoman Empire to know how its decline could've been prevented, but if they'd managed to hold on to their territories in the Middle East then they may have been able to exploit the oil deposits there, bolstering their economy and keeping the traditional ruling class rich and powerful. They may end up more like Saudi Arabia or Jordan (in terms of their economy, their political structure, and how they're viewed by the west) as a result. Alternatively if you could cause the Turkish National Movement to be less secular and more religiously motivated in nature and have the resulting government be republican yet theocratic, like Iran's government, then that would distance Turkey from the west quite distinctly. I'm not sure what it would take to cause that, though. |
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Post by Kubo Caskett on Mar 19, 2016 2:55:53 GMT
Never mind, what I am asking is what PODs are necessary to have Japan trying to be part of a Western political and cultural union and Turkey not doing so ITTL. The regional alliances the USA set up in Asia (SEATO, CENTO) springs to mind regarding Japan. Maybe Japan could be made part of a Pacific alliance designed to prevent the expansion of Communism (China in particular, but maybe also communist-aligned countries like Indonesia), possibly an expanded ANZUS alliance which would presumably be called PACTO. I'm not sure what it would take to have that happen though - perhaps China and North Korea win the Korean War, uniting the peninsula under a communist banner and thus being a massive threat to Japan due to their proximity? This PACTO would be a military alliance at first, but through military co-operation economic and political unions might evolve. Maybe a Pacific free movement and single market area, covering Japan, Australia, New Zealand, various Pacific island nations, maybe the Philippines and Papua New Guinea, and possibly the USA's Pacific territories? Due to the distances involved and the lack of clear cultural and historical connections between these countries it's unlikely to be as close as the EU, but it's a start. As for Turkey, the Ottoman Empire surviving, especially with territories in Mesopotamia and Arabia intact, would go a long way to making it less western and more distant from the rest of Europe culturally and politically. I don't know enough about the Ottoman Empire to know how its decline could've been prevented, but if they'd managed to hold on to their territories in the Middle East then they may have been able to exploit the oil deposits there, bolstering their economy and keeping the traditional ruling class rich and powerful. They may end up more like Saudi Arabia or Jordan (in terms of their economy, their political structure, and how they're viewed by the west) as a result. That's a good start, though I my own take on that switcheroo in that Japan somehow becomes part of the Central Powers in WW1 and the Ottomans part of the allies. After WW1 ends with defeat and victory for those respective powers, Japan under some Ataturk analogue decides to look to Europe/the West since being "Asian" led them nowhere (even to the point of shedding the native Chinese-derived script in favor of a Latin one, there was such a proposal for this IOTL) and the Ottomans liberalize and undergo some economic prosperity (and become a lot less willing to be part of the West though some Western trends and fashion come to play). |
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