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Post by MinnesotaNationalist on Apr 13, 2016 17:26:02 GMT
In 1200, if you were to ask any European (and indeed, most Eurasians), what a Mongol was, they'd either give you a confused look or say they're a petty and unimportant people on the other side of the Khitan/ Tangut lands. Within less than 30 years, almost every Eurasian knew who a Mongol was and feared them, as in that time they built one of the largest empires the world has ever known. So what if this mighty empire never existed? A distinct possibility if Genghis Khan never existed or died a premature death (I'd have to argue as late as 1211 with a failure at the battle of Badger Pass).
Firstly, the Bubonic plague would have a much smaller chance of spreading out to Europe and the Middle East (See Alternate History Hub's new video on that for more), but even more so it helped do the final blow to the Islamic Golden Age and helped jump-start Europe once more. Had the Mongols not risen, who would end up being the dominant people of the world (or would there be a dominant people)? India perhaps? Maybe China would continue to take on the Mantel?
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Post by Krall on Apr 13, 2016 23:50:26 GMT
Well, I know the Mongol invasion and subjugation of Russia lead to its unification, both because they gave one of their Russian vassals special privileges over the others (Muskovy) and because they were a common enemy for them to unite against. I'm not sure what would happen without them though - perhaps they'd remain divided for longer, and Russia wouldn't come to conquer Siberia?
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Post by Jasen777 on Apr 14, 2016 0:38:28 GMT
Changes everything, but how it changes is largely guessing.
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Post by MinnesotaNationalist on Apr 14, 2016 4:55:46 GMT
Changes everything, but how it changes is largely guessing. Very well said. The the rise of the Mongols was one of the most important events ever, and taking it away would change so much |
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Post by eDGT on Apr 14, 2016 11:27:24 GMT
Changes everything, but how it changes is largely guessing. Isn't that sort of the point of alternate history? |
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Post by Krall on Apr 14, 2016 13:32:54 GMT
Having done some quick research, it looks like the Second Bulgarian Empire reached its largest territorial extent just before the Mongols showed up. If they hadn't, and the Bulgarian Empire didn't have to pay them tribute, perhaps Bulgaria's rise would continue? Maybe they'd take the place of the Byzantines as the primary Orthodox power in Europe.
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Post by guyverman1990 on Apr 15, 2016 0:39:28 GMT
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Post by MinnesotaNationalist on Apr 15, 2016 1:27:23 GMT
Oh my. I do apologize. I would like to say, looking at your thread now, the Turks were already in Anatolia by the time the Mongols came, and in fact I think they may have risen quicker if the Mongols weren't around |
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Post by guyverman1990 on Apr 15, 2016 7:17:07 GMT
Oh my. I do apologize. I would like to say, looking at your thread now, the Turks were already in Anatolia by the time the Mongols came, and in fact I think they may have risen quicker if the Mongols weren't around I know Turkic peoples were in the area for quite some while, but I'm not sue if it was the same group as the ones who will eventually set up the Ottoman Empire. |
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Post by Krall on Apr 15, 2016 17:31:44 GMT
Oh my. I do apologize. I would like to say, looking at your thread now, the Turks were already in Anatolia by the time the Mongols came, and in fact I think they may have risen quicker if the Mongols weren't around I know Turkic peoples were in the area for quite some while, but I'm not sue if it was the same group as the ones who will eventually set up the Ottoman Empire. The Seljuk Turks were definitely in Anatolia before the rise of the Mongol Empire, and I think the Turks that would become the Ottoman Turks migrated to the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum to help them against the Byzantines, rather than being forced out by the Mongols. The Mongol conquest and vassalisation of the Seljuks did seem to factor into their decline, and thus their fragmentation and the rise of the Ottomans though. Maybe without the Mongol conquest the Sultanate of Rum would've survived, thrived, and come to dominate Anatolia as the Ottomans did in OTL? |
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Post by guyverman1990 on Apr 20, 2016 3:06:46 GMT
I know Turkic peoples were in the area for quite some while, but I'm not sue if it was the same group as the ones who will eventually set up the Ottoman Empire. The Seljuk Turks were definitely in Anatolia before the rise of the Mongol Empire, and I think the Turks that would become the Ottoman Turks migrated to the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum to help them against the Byzantines, rather than being forced out by the Mongols. The Mongol conquest and vassalisation of the Seljuks did seem to factor into their decline, and thus their fragmentation and the rise of the Ottomans though. Maybe without the Mongol conquest the Sultanate of Rum would've survived, thrived, and come to dominate Anatolia as the Ottomans did in OTL? What do you think would've been the fate of the Abbasid Calipahte? |
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Post by MinnesotaNationalist on Apr 20, 2016 5:07:39 GMT
The Seljuk Turks were definitely in Anatolia before the rise of the Mongol Empire, and I think the Turks that would become the Ottoman Turks migrated to the Seljuk Sultanate of Rum to help them against the Byzantines, rather than being forced out by the Mongols. The Mongol conquest and vassalisation of the Seljuks did seem to factor into their decline, and thus their fragmentation and the rise of the Ottomans though. Maybe without the Mongol conquest the Sultanate of Rum would've survived, thrived, and come to dominate Anatolia as the Ottomans did in OTL? What do you think would've been the fate of the Abbasid Calipahte? The Abbasids would have probably continued to suffer a long, cruel, grueling death. That, or possibly being hopped around from one empire to the next as a puppet |
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Post by guyverman1990 on Apr 21, 2016 6:26:16 GMT
^I just read that the Seljuk Sultanate fractured into several smaller groups before said groups were annexed by the Mongols. They collapsed in 1194, 18 years before Ghengis Khan proclaimed the founding of the Mongol Empire. Whereas most fragments got absorbed by the Mongols, the Sultanate of Rum in modern Turkey was the seed that eventually spawn the Ottoman Empire.
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