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Post by whiteshore on Apr 19, 2016 4:06:38 GMT
In a world where Adolf Hitler was either never born or died in the trenches of the Western Front, who would be possible replacements for Hitler for the role of "Great Historical Evil"?
(Only restriction is that said "Great Historical Evil " has to NOT share a world with Nazi Germany)
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Post by MinnesotaNationalist on Apr 19, 2016 4:45:59 GMT
Stalin easily. Without Hitler to start a World War and the Holocaust, Stalin would have no one to try to overshadow him
(I'm not including Mao in this, because I'm not quite 100% convinced that Mao would rise without a Hitler starting a World War).
Other possibilities for the Great Historical Evil, at least from OTL, would include Genghis Khan, Attila (totally gets a bad rap), and Timur.
Without a Hitler, it could be possible that the world turns on the British Empire (unlikely, but possible), making her a Great Evil
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Post by whiteshore on Apr 19, 2016 5:35:35 GMT
What about the Japanese Empire due to the "China Incident"?
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Post by Kubo Caskett on Apr 19, 2016 15:41:57 GMT
What about the Japanese Empire due to the "China Incident"? That could do the trick though there has to be one recognizable figure that's the "leader" of the Empire and the Emperor doesn't count (Tojo anyone?). |
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Post by Krall on Apr 19, 2016 21:15:02 GMT
That could do the trick though there has to be one recognizable figure that's the "leader" of the Empire and the Emperor doesn't count (Tojo anyone?). That would make sense - I think there was a significant effort on the part of the Americans to shift blame away from the Emperor and his family and onto Tojo and others, so if some version of WWII or at least the Pacific Theatre of WWII happened in an ATL without Hitler, then Tojo becoming the archetype for evil people in American culture (and thus most cultures eventually, due to American cultural influence) is possible. |
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Post by eDGT on Apr 19, 2016 22:10:21 GMT
That would make sense - I think there was a significant effort on the part of the Americans to shift blame away from the Emperor and his family and onto Tojo and others, so if some version of WWII or at least the Pacific Theatre of WWII happened in an ATL without Hitler, then Tojo becoming the archetype for evil people in American culture (and thus most cultures eventually, due to American cultural influence) is possible. Propaganda loves having a "face" they can spit poison at, however I think that when it came to the US or any European power fighting against the Japanese their usual racial profile was more appealing than any specific person. Granted Tojo did influence that image with his glasses and pencil mustache, but the image of the little yellow guy with buckteeth and a funny accent had been around for ages. When it came to the Nazis though, well they were white, therefore the western powers had no physical traits they could poke fun at. Hitler had a pretty distinctive face though, making him an easy target. Also I don't think American cultural influence would have anywhere near it's OTL reach without a massive European war with hundreds of thousands of Americans and American products actually in Europe. The most I can see is influence on cinema, which would diminish once television started to take off. |
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Post by Krall on Apr 19, 2016 23:33:13 GMT
Propaganda loves having a "face" they can spit poison at, however I think that when it came to the US or any European power fighting against the Japanese their usual racial profile was more appealing than any specific person. Granted Tojo did influence that image with his glasses and pencil mustache, but the image of the little yellow guy with buckteeth and a funny accent had been around for ages. When it came to the Nazis though, well they were white, therefore the western powers had no physical traits they could poke fun at. Hitler had a pretty distinctive face though, making him an easy target. I'm not sure that's the case - during the war prejudice against Japanese people certainly played a big part, but once they'd surrendered the US didn't paint them all as inherently evil (certainly the idea of the Japanese being fanatical servants of the Emperor hasn't survived to the modern day), and there's some evidence that Douglas MacArthur and Brigadier General Bonner Fellers worked to have Tojo take the fall for Japan's war crimes to protect the royal family. Also I don't think American cultural influence would have anywhere near it's OTL reach without a massive European war with hundreds of thousands of Americans and American products actually in Europe. The most I can see is influence on cinema, which would diminish once television started to take off. True, but there still might be a large war in Europe even without the Nazis. If socialists or communists manage to gain power in Germany we might see them and the USSR squaring off against France and Britain. |
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Post by Kubo Caskett on Apr 19, 2016 23:42:40 GMT
That would make sense - I think there was a significant effort on the part of the Americans to shift blame away from the Emperor and his family and onto Tojo and others, so if some version of WWII or at least the Pacific Theatre of WWII happened in an ATL without Hitler, then Tojo becoming the archetype for evil people in American culture (and thus most cultures eventually, due to American cultural influence) is possible. Propaganda loves having a "face" they can spit poison at, however I think that when it came to the US or any European power fighting against the Japanese their usual racial profile was more appealing than any specific person. Granted Tojo did influence that image with his glasses and pencil mustache, but the image of the little yellow guy with buckteeth and a funny accent had been around for ages. When it came to the Nazis though, well they were white, therefore the western powers had no physical traits they could poke fun at. Hitler had a pretty distinctive face though, making him an easy target. Also I don't think American cultural influence would have anywhere near it's OTL reach without a massive European war with hundreds of thousands of Americans and American products actually in Europe. The most I can see is influence on cinema, which would diminish once television started to take off. If there were American troops fighting the Japanese in Mainland Asia then American influence would spread there, sort of like how it was OTL with the Philippines.
And speaking of race, another good candidate would be some neo-Ottomanist Nazi analogue that seeks to restore the glory of the Ottoman Empire and given that the Turks are sort of different from the Europeans (though its highly debatable if the Turks are Middle-Eastern or European; personally I think the Turks are Middle Eastern), the image of the Turbaned conqueror would resonate in the minds of the European and American soldiers fighting against the Nazi-like neo-Ottoman forces.
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Post by guyverman1990 on Apr 20, 2016 3:02:56 GMT
How would Hitler be affected by a Central Powers Victory? I'd say he'd become a governor of one of Germany's newly acquired colonial possessions.
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Post by whiteshore on Apr 20, 2016 3:28:40 GMT
How would Hitler be affected by a Central Powers Victory? I'd say he'd become a governor of one of Germany's newly acquired colonial possessions. Good Point? But who would take his place then as the "Great Historical Evil"? Oswald Mosley? |
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Post by eDGT on Apr 20, 2016 11:59:48 GMT
How would Hitler be affected by a Central Powers Victory? I'd say he'd become a governor of one of Germany's newly acquired colonial possessions. Why on earth would he do that? He'd had a few promotions, and he'd risen high enough for an enlisted man with limited abilities, but why would they let a Corporal all of a sudden govern a chunk of Africa? Best bet I think is that he remains in the army. He loved it in the army, it gave his life meaning, and what's more he was seen as a good soldier. If he stayed he would most likely be sent east to help put down the Soviets or garrison one of the new Eastern European satellites. If he's there long enough he could maybe win a few more medals and make a staff sergeant. If he ever enters politics it would probably be in a more traditionally conservative role, maybe something about protecting the rights of veterans and a bit about traditional family and cultural values. If there were American troops fighting the Japanese in Mainland Asia then American influence would spread there, sort of like how it was OTL with the Philippines. That's a good point, though I'm wondering how accepting the war weary Chinese will be of Coca Cola, bubble gum, and the American dream  Still a very cool image though. Now that's a cool thought, Turkey is usually dismissed as a mid-rank power post-1920, and it's either going to be eaten by the Germans, Soviets, or Italians. In a world with a dead Hitler thought, if the Soviet Union looks like the more threatening power, and if Ataturk suddenly came down with a case of lead poisoning then perhaps a more radical Turkish nationalism (married with radical Islam) could come forward as a bulwark against Soviet expansionism. Though I think Fez's would suit them better than turbans, as shown here.  Say German advisers to the Turkish army get made into their own division? I'm not sure that's the case - during the war prejudice against Japanese people certainly played a big part, but once they'd surrendered the US didn't paint them all as inherently evil (certainly the idea of the Japanese being fanatical servants of the Emperor hasn't survived to the modern day), and there's some evidence that Douglas MacArthur and Brigadier General Bonner Fellers worked to have Tojo take the fall for Japan's war crimes to protect the royal family. Well yes, but once they'd surrendered there was no point in portraying the Japanese as evil, especially not since their country needed to be rebuilt as an American ally against the Soviets. The fact we don't view the Japanese as Emperor worshiping fanatics is for the same reason we no longer view the Germans as bullet headed anti-Semites. I had actually been thinking something along those lines earlier, even with Hitler dead Germany would have no shortage of political radicals who could make a good speech. I was initially thinking Rohm, or one of the Strasser brothers, however I had also remembered how similar Himmler and Tojo looked. I thinking is that with no Hitler and no Beer Hall Putsch the future NSDAP remains mixed in with the various other conservative and far-right elements inhabiting Germany at the time. Himmler is a part of this mess, however he was also a duplicitous bastard, and so I could see him hanging off of the coat tails of various charismatic men until he ends up in government and pulling all the strings. |
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Post by Krall on Apr 20, 2016 14:03:33 GMT
Well yes, but once they'd surrendered there was no point in portraying the Japanese as evil, especially not since their country needed to be rebuilt as an American ally against the Soviets. The fact we don't view the Japanese as Emperor worshiping fanatics is for the same reason we no longer view the Germans as bullet headed anti-Semites. Exactly my point - once the war's over and they want to rebuild Japan as an ally, they'd rather have a specific person to blame for its evils rather than continuing to claim that all Japanese people are evil. Hence, Tojo might become the fact of Japan's atrocities, and thus become this timeline's "Hitler". China would definitely want someone they could blame for the terrible things that were done to them, so assuming they arise as the next major world power after the USSR, that's two major powers who are in favour of continuing the idea that Tojo was responsible. I had actually been thinking something along those lines earlier, even with Hitler dead Germany would have no shortage of political radicals who could make a good speech. I was initially thinking Rohm, or one of the Strasser brothers, however I had also remembered how similar Himmler and Tojo looked. I thinking is that with no Hitler and no Beer Hall Putsch the future NSDAP remains mixed in with the various other conservative and far-right elements inhabiting Germany at the time. Himmler is a part of this mess, however he was also a duplicitous bastard, and so I could see him hanging off of the coat tails of various charismatic men until he ends up in government and pulling all the strings. Yeah, German politics at the time was definitely crazy enough for a war analogous to our WWII to take place in Europe. We'd need to avert any Holocaust-like atrocities in Europe to avoid them overshadowing the atrocities of Japan in Asia - would that be difficult, or were the Nazis really the only ones whose ideology called for the specific elimination of certain groups like that? |
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Post by eDGT on Apr 20, 2016 14:46:52 GMT
Exactly my point - once the war's over and they want to rebuild Japan as an ally, they'd rather have a specific person to blame for its evils rather than continuing to claim that all Japanese people are evil. Hence, Tojo might become the face of Japan's atrocities, and thus become this timeline's "Hitler". China would definitely want someone they could blame for the terrible things that were done to them, so assuming they arise as the next major world power after the USSR, that's two major powers who are in favour of continuing the idea that Tojo was responsible. I was just looking up old propaganda to see any differences between the anti-German and the anti-Japanese stuff. From what I can see every Japanese soldier is made to look like Tojo, but only a few of them actually referenced him. For the Germans though nearly everyone of them was a direct reference to Hitler, other than that it's just swastikas, helmets, and jackboots. But all that said isn't it still seen as a problem today that Japan never underwent any "de-Nazification" like process? I recall hearing a thing where the Japanese Prime Minister actively denied such atrocities as the rape of Nanking. So it's all well and good that Tojo is the bad guy, but it'd still mean nothing unless following any Pacific War there was a massive re-education programme carried out in Japan. If not then China and even Korea could probably still end up viewing Japan as hostile towards them. Well anti-Semetism was popular enough in the far-right, and even with elements of the left, Jewish Capitalists and all that. However there were plenty of conservative Jews as well, former veterans, businessmen, folks like that. If Germany is to be reduced as a bad guy then I say the best path is for them to firstly focus on reclaiming some lands (Austria, Sudetenland, Polish Corridor) and secondly on building up a large following of right-wing allies and puppets in Eastern Europe and the Balkans in order to fend off the Soviets, essentially their own Co-Prosperity Sphere. Perhaps a minor conflict with Poland, but only to secure the corridor rather than annex half the country, also keeping any genocidal ambitions on the down low. I think it could be an interesting Japanese analogue if a conservative takeover tries to do away with the Republic and reinstate the Kaiser, though I doubt it would end well. |
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Post by Krall on Apr 20, 2016 18:02:15 GMT
I was just looking up old propaganda to see any differences between the anti-German and the anti-Japanese stuff. From what I can see every Japanese soldier is made to look like Tojo, but only a few of them actually referenced him. For the Germans though nearly everyone of them was a direct reference to Hitler, other than that it's just swastikas, helmets, and jackboots. That doesn't mean that Tojo won't be painted and remembered as the primary person responsible for Japan's atrocities post-war. But all that said isn't it still seen as a problem today that Japan never underwent any "de-Nazification" like process? I recall hearing a thing where the Japanese Prime Minister actively denied such atrocities as the rape of Nanking. So it's all well and good that Tojo is the bad guy, but it'd still mean nothing unless following any Pacific War there was a massive re-education programme carried out in Japan. If not then China and even Korea could probably still end up viewing Japan as hostile towards them. Yeah, Japan recognising its atrocities and undergoing a "de-Nazification" process would help create and maintain the idea of the Imperial Rule Assistance Association and Tojo being the "ultimate evil". If there's more US involvement in China and China doesn't go Communist in this timeline then the Chinese might be able to pressure the US and Japan into something like that. Well anti-Semetism was popular enough in the far-right, and even with elements of the left, Jewish Capitalists and all that. However there were plenty of conservative Jews as well, former veterans, businessmen, folks like that. If Germany is to be reduced as a bad guy then I say the best path is for them to firstly focus on reclaiming some lands (Austria, Sudetenland, Polish Corridor) and secondly on building up a large following of right-wing allies and puppets in Eastern Europe and the Balkans in order to fend off the Soviets, essentially their own Co-Prosperity Sphere. Perhaps a minor conflict with Poland, but only to secure the corridor rather than annex half the country, also keeping any genocidal ambitions on the down low. I think it could be an interesting Japanese analogue if a conservative takeover tries to do away with the Republic and reinstate the Kaiser, though I doubt it would end well. Hmm, so a more "vanilla" fascism takes control in Germany, one not so heavily racist and perhaps more monarchist like the Italian fascists? That'd be interesting to see, and it'd fit with how extremist movements often try to recreate a (fictional) ideal past when everything was great. |
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Post by Kubo Caskett on Apr 20, 2016 22:44:26 GMT
Well anti-Semetism was popular enough in the far-right, and even with elements of the left, Jewish Capitalists and all that. However there were plenty of conservative Jews as well, former veterans, businessmen, folks like that. If Germany is to be reduced as a bad guy then I say the best path is for them to firstly focus on reclaiming some lands (Austria, Sudetenland, Polish Corridor) and secondly on building up a large following of right-wing allies and puppets in Eastern Europe and the Balkans in order to fend off the Soviets, essentially their own Co-Prosperity Sphere. Perhaps a minor conflict with Poland, but only to secure the corridor rather than annex half the country, also keeping any genocidal ambitions on the down low. I think it could be an interesting Japanese analogue if a conservative takeover tries to do away with the Republic and reinstate the Kaiser, though I doubt it would end well. Hmm, so a more "vanilla" fascism takes control in Germany, one not so heavily racist and perhaps more monarchist like the Italian fascists? That'd be interesting to see, and it'd fit with how extremist movements often try to recreate a (fictional) ideal past when everything was great. You know I had this idea where in an ATL WWII, Germany and Japan switched places in terms of government systems but still went fascist (sort of); Germany had a "vanilla" fascist regime while Japan's was more centralized with a "fuhrer" figure (think the Cherry Blossom coup succeeding). It was for a world where the Axis won WWII but it was Japan that stole the show since I wanted to do something different than "dem Nazis winning the world", which served as the basis for that Hakku Ichiu map I made a while ago. |
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Post by whiteshore on Apr 21, 2016 0:49:03 GMT
What about a hypothetical Fascist France or Fascist Russia?
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Post by eDGT on Apr 21, 2016 7:15:33 GMT
What about a hypothetical Fascist France or Fascist Russia? I did once come up with an idea for an alternate version of The Producers, where two Pied-Noir emigres to New York put together a musical about France's fallen dictator, Albert Camus As for French Fascism, I always liked the idea of more democratic Fascism, and I think that a French take on the ideology following a Central Powers victory may lean towards that. Germany and Italy had generally rather poor experiences with democracy, at least according to right-wing politicians, France on the other hand still had a massive democratic and revolutionary tradition. I always thought French Fascism would focus on retrieving Alsace-Lorraine, humiliating the Germans, and protecting the rights of veterans of the Great War, but it would have less to say about racial politics. It may even remain fairly democratic, especially if they used expansion of citizenship to Africans and Arabs as a way of co-opting them into support. |
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Post by whiteshore on Apr 22, 2016 2:48:08 GMT
What about Fascist Russia, then?
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Post by punkrockbowler805 on May 14, 2016 20:15:01 GMT
Baron Roman ungern von Sternberg.
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Post by punkrockbowler805 on May 14, 2016 20:17:14 GMT
Like maybe have him overthrow the Bolsheviks from Mongolia with Japanese backing then become fascist white Russia's leader.
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