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Post by rvbomally on Jan 22, 2017 19:02:42 GMT
Ah, I see. How does Azitediguo feel about the gigantic alliance of everyone North of them? They're part of the same alliance system, but not the North Occidentan Federation. Question : when will it be set ? At Silas-Coldwine map's time (1950), mine (2000) or Jocke's (probably >2020) ? Wouldn't it be better to do two or three maps? I was thinking setting it during Jocke's map, with insets for Eurasia in 1950 and in 2000. if it's the former ones, shouldn't the Californian Chinese state have been incorporated into Kwanping? No, it was always independent and isn't interested in joining Kwanping. If I understand well, the North american alliance with the pale green border is like a sphere for Azitediguo, right? It's the North Occidentan Federation. From your map, weren't there a Chinese state in Cascadia? No, that territory was part of Vinland. Is there only chinese colonies in america, wouldn't the Japanese, the Mongol-North-Chineses or the Koreans participate too? South China would take an equivalent role to spain ITTL, not playing the 1:1 equivalents game though. Becca had stated on DA a very interesting reason for china to be a colonial force : A smaller but more persistent Mongol presence; so shouldn't we maybe assume things like Japanese Alaska, Korean Australia or something? There might be a Tatar/Turkish Alaska, actually. I was thinking that most of the other colonies would be in Oceania or South America. North America was South China's playground. The mongols would have been only a ruler class. I don't think their chinese empire span to much into siberia, at least, not too much into the Central siberian plain. Which can permit the development of this Huge tatar Turkey that would become Altai. Of course Altai being a pan-altaist state, the would desire to have the Mongols and maybe even Japanese and Koreans into their ranks. I like the idea of a massive Altai union spanning from Japan to the borders of Europe. Ah also, some precisions about my ideas for my map (feel free to criticize them or/and dismiss them) : the Iberian Federation, the Britain Union, Thessaloniki Pact and Armenia are not Harmonist, but despite that, the New Anti-Harmony defensive Pact (NAHADPA) is probably allied to Altai and the Thessaloniki pact and eventually Armenia allied to Eurotropa, cause Altai is a bit a reverse equivalent to the Sino-Soviet divide. A harmonist coup was hold / the harmonists won a civil war was then Altai betrayed the AntiHarDP to join the Harmonist ranks, but then knew a derivation to more independence of her own. The collapse of Anti-Harmony is due to too much divergent interests and to the fall of 'Imperialism' (form of very old-fashioned European conception of the state, with a strong monarch and a strong intertwined between nobility and economic power) which provocated the fall of Byzantium, Barcelonese Empire and English Empire, Ougro-Bulgaria and probably Moravia and Navarre. I imagined the setting of Europe to be similar to the Alliance system of WWI : you have the central powers with Eurotropa, Thessaloniki and Armenia, and the Entente powers with Altai and the NAHADPA. With the fall of the Altai, there might have been another geopolitical shakeup by the 2020s. Neo-Imperialism and Neo-Harmonism coming into vogue to challenge the Harmonism-lite of the current world order. Here's an update, adding Eurotropa and friends. I changed the North America colors to match my map more closely and contrast more with Eurotropa. And yes, that is Turkish Alaska. Any thoughts?
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Post by Krall on Jan 22, 2017 20:42:47 GMT
Here's an update, adding Eurotropa and friends. I changed the North America colors to match my map more closely and contrast more with Eurotropa. And yes, that is Turkish Alaska. Any thoughts? It's looking good so far, but I do have one gripe... North Occidentan Federation. Surely it would be "Occident*i*an"?
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Post by tonio103 on Jan 22, 2017 22:52:28 GMT
The mongols would have been only a ruler class. I don't think their chinese empire span to much into siberia, at least, not too much into the Central siberian plain. Which can permit the development of this Huge tatar Turkey that would become Altai. Of course Altai being a pan-altaist state, the would desire to have the Mongols and maybe even Japanese and Koreans into their ranks. I like the idea of a massive Altai union spanning from Japan to the borders of Europe. I would let Japan as independant, seem to be too far of a stretch, though i would give Hokkaido to Altai. Ah also, some precisions about my ideas for my map (feel free to criticize them or/and dismiss them) : the Iberian Federation, the Britain Union, Thessaloniki Pact and Armenia are not Harmonist, but despite that, the New Anti-Harmony defensive Pact (NAHADPA) is probably allied to Altai and the Thessaloniki pact and eventually Armenia allied to Eurotropa, cause Altai is a bit a reverse equivalent to the Sino-Soviet divide. A harmonist coup was hold / the harmonists won a civil war was then Altai betrayed the AntiHarDP to join the Harmonist ranks, but then knew a derivation to more independence of her own. The collapse of Anti-Harmony is due to too much divergent interests and to the fall of 'Imperialism' (form of very old-fashioned European conception of the state, with a strong monarch and a strong intertwined between nobility and economic power) which provocated the fall of Byzantium, Barcelonese Empire and English Empire, Ougro-Bulgaria and probably Moravia and Navarre. I imagined the setting of Europe to be similar to the Alliance system of WWI : you have the central powers with Eurotropa, Thessaloniki and Armenia, and the Entente powers with Altai and the NAHADPA. With the fall of the Altai, there might have been another geopolitical shakeup by the 2020s. Neo-Imperialism and Neo-Harmonism coming into vogue to challenge the Harmonism-lite of the current world order. Aha, so altai did a flip-flap between harmonism and (neo-)imperialism, interesting ^^ With the collapse of Altai i would give the indepence to Korea and Manchuria, and probably Mongolia. Here's an update, adding Eurotropa and friends. I changed the North America colors to match my map more closely and contrast more with Eurotropa. And yes, that is Turkish Alaska. Any thoughts? It's great ! looking forwards Minor Mistake : Eurotropa span a bit more east in Pomerania/Estonia along the Daugava (unless of course you decided to give it to Turkey) Otherwise nothing much to say
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Post by rvbomally on Jan 23, 2017 3:40:14 GMT
Surely it would be "Occident*i*an"? I suppose so! I would let Japan as independant, seem to be too far of a stretch, though i would give Hokkaido to Altai. --- Aha, so altai did a flip-flap between harmonism and (neo-)imperialism, interesting ^^ With the collapse of Altai i would give the indepence to Korea and Manchuria, and probably Mongolia. It's great ! looking forwards Minor Mistake : Eurotropa span a bit more east in Pomerania/Estonia along the Daugava (unless of course you decided to give it to Turkey) Otherwise nothing much to say All duly noted. Another draft. I will take more from zalesky's Middle East than Jokeh's, since he only made a map of Arabia. I will also be filling in the Sahara. Note the Europe inset. I will add one for the year 2000, too.
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Post by tonio103 on Jan 23, 2017 8:21:43 GMT
Surely it would be "Occident*i*an"? I suppose so! Strange that it's the European name that stick around for this federation. Though the Chinese name for the continent is already taken by Kwanping so it's understandable. I would let Japan as independant, seem to be too far of a stretch, though i would give Hokkaido to Altai. --- Aha, so altai did a flip-flap between harmonism and (neo-)imperialism, interesting ^^ With the collapse of Altai i would give the indepence to Korea and Manchuria, and probably Mongolia. It's great ! looking forwards Minor Mistake : Eurotropa span a bit more east in Pomerania/Estonia along the Daugava (unless of course you decided to give it to Turkey) Otherwise nothing much to say All duly noted. Another draft. I will take more from zalesky's Middle East than Jokeh's, since he only made a map of Arabia. I will also be filling in the Sahara. Note the Europe inset. I will add one for the year 2000, too. Awww, this stamp map is so cute! *hum* Not sure though about the proto-eurotropa. I would suppose that by that time, there is only a holy-roman empire, quite divided. So I wouldn't use the same color as Eurotropa, or at least, i would color only maybe Brandenburg and Oberland into that color and then the rest of the states with the sphereling color. Same thing should be said about Britain Union/The English Empire, they shouldn't be the same color, since Britain union is not an English-led state, but a small UE-style entity for the British isles, i would represent the Borders as international borders in black instead of admnistrative in white. Unless you want to say a set back into Imperialism and a growth of England importance between 2000 and 2020. Though it should be represented on the 2000 stamp as an Iberian sphereling (Depending your focus of course). Also, If i remember correctly, Normandy didn't span that much east on Silas-Coldwine's map. Ah yes, some minor mistakes : Kosovo isn't independant. And one maybe thoughtless action from Jockehh's part : i doubt that as a full member of the Thessalonika pact, Albania would be reduced that much (Especially since it's a full orthodox state ITTL). Ah one last thing, since you don't show sahara as empty, you should put the Maghreb into the African federation and call it 'Alkebu Confederation'.
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Post by rvbomally on Jan 23, 2017 18:21:08 GMT
Alright, yet another draft. I only have South America to go, since I want to give people who mapped out that region to have a chance to give input on it. I may also break up Africa into more sub-parts, and may make some areas of southern Africa independent.
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Post by Krall on Jan 23, 2017 20:35:21 GMT
Alright, yet another draft. I only have South America to go, since I want to give people who mapped out that region to have a chance to give input on it. I may also break up Africa into more sub-parts, and may make some areas of southern Africa independent. Breaking up Africa into more subdivisions and making some of it independent might be a good idea - at the moment it's just a big space filling empire. As for what South America would be like, at the moment we know that the Chinese colonised the continent west of the Andes and were later replaced by indigenous states one Chinese central authority in the Americas had eroded away. Given that the Chinese in North America seem to be on equal terms with later European colonisers in terms of power/technology, I'd assume these indigenous states would also be advanced enough to resist European colonisation, at least to a greater extent than they did in OTL. Chinese influence doesn't seem to have spread to the Atlantic coast though, so European colonisers would likely have conquered that area. There would probably be more indigenous people in that area though, since they've been exposed to Old World diseases by contact with the Chinese. By the time of the Cloaked War you'd have European colonies in the east, with some Chinese-influenced native countries holding on in the west. Harmonism would likely be popular among native peoples as they seek to overthrow the anti-Harmonist European empires and establish their own states and it looks like Harmonism "won" the Cloaked War, especially with the rise of Eurotropa, so South America would probably be a variety of post-colonial states, including a few big federations. Perhaps a Pan-*Andean Federation in the west, stretching from Patagonia to Panama?
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Post by tonio103 on Jan 23, 2017 20:59:52 GMT
Alright, yet another draft. I only have South America to go, since I want to give people who mapped out that region to have a chance to give input on it. I may also break up Africa into more sub-parts, and may make some areas of southern Africa independent. Mmh, the map seem like too simple and empty. Looking great otherwise. The African Union shouldn't go too much south. In my opinion, there, there should be Chinese or Indian Colonies (probably both). And it would be nice if you could either integrate the Algerian state into it and rename everything into 'Alkebu federation' or –at least on the 2000 map– give Libya and Alkebu confederation as spherelings (since it was something my map failed to convey). Also, i wonder if South China should be in the Yuan china. Also, on both the 1950 and 2000 map, Norway should get the Trondheim region, cause i hardly see the Pomeranian Thalassocracy take that from them. The Carelia Altaic state should be made bigger, and a Laponian one should be created. And does the integration of Volhynia into russia on the 2000 map is on purpose (i feel like Russia may be too much westward)?
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Post by rvbomally on Jan 23, 2017 21:04:15 GMT
Breaking up Africa into more subdivisions and making some of it independent might be a good idea - at the moment it's just a big space filling empire. Yeah, I was tempted to make even more divisions than what was on Jockehh's map, but I think making the region south of what his map showed full of independent states would work better. I had something similar in mind, since it's clear from Arminius's map that Europe had a colonial presence on the Atlantic coast, and I continued that trend. Upvote's map mentions a New Britanny, so that might be a Brazil-like power, the primary English colony in the New World apart from New Jersey. Could a Guapari-successor be the center of this Pan-*Andean federation? I think I'll turn them into spherelings for the African Union. Upvote mentioned the South Chinese eventually being overrun by the Yuan. Noted.
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UpvoteBecca
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Post by UpvoteBecca on Jan 23, 2017 21:19:01 GMT
Breaking up Africa into more subdivisions and making some of it independent might be a good idea - at the moment it's just a big space filling empire. Yeah, I was tempted to make even more divisions than what was on Jockehh's map, but I think making the region south of what his map showed full of independent states would work better. I had something similar in mind, since it's clear from Arminius's map that Europe had a colonial presence on the Atlantic coast, and I continued that trend. Upvote's map mentions a New Britanny, so that might be a Brazil-like power, the primary English colony in the New World apart from New Jersey. Could a Guapari-successor be the center of this Pan-*Andean federation? I think I'll turn them into spherelings for the African Union. Upvote mentioned the South Chinese eventually being overrun by the Yuan. Noted. Err, I meant the NORTHERN Chinese would be overrun by the Yuan (at least that's what I was trying to say). The southern Chinese should still be around, I figure. Right now I feel like Asia is too generic; I mean, you have the Xinjiang, Mongolia, Manchuria, Tibet, and China, the giant alt-Russia, a united India, and a few Indochinese states. I think, if anything, Chinese culture would be more southern based, extending into Vietnam and maybe even Ayutthaya. Maybe showing different divisions of India would help, even though you don't need to feel forced to add that? Also, I think I should let Krall and Markus come up with what South America looks like. If I had to guess, I'd say some native states in OTL Brazil, maybe even with some African and European condominiums. There would also probably be a large Guarani Empire, some smaller Incan states, and maybe some remnants of Chinese/Harmonist warlords in the area. Also, I agree with Krall that Africa should be divided a bit more. I think it'd look better with more subdivisions/autonomous areas, i.e. making it more like a confederation rather than a centralized country. Maybe some rebellions, too?
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Post by Krall on Jan 23, 2017 21:22:57 GMT
I had something similar in mind, since it's clear from Arminius's map that Europe had a colonial presence on the Atlantic coast, and I continued that trend. Upvote's map mentions a New Britanny, so that might be a Brazil-like power, the primary English colony in the New World apart from New Jersey. Could a Guapari-successor be the center of this Pan-*Andean federation? That's what I was thinking - Upvote's map mentions a "modern" state of Guaparia, which would be a successor to the original Guapari empire (whether it's just the Guapari empire with a different name or whether it's a different state in the same area that took the Guapari name I'm not sure). I was thinking they'd be the main driving force behind the *Andean unification, as one of the more powerful indigenous states in the area. As for New Brittany, Upvote's map mentioned that the Chinese colonies shown were partially in New Brittany, which would put it in the area of Colombia/Ecuador. That said it doesn't have to be centred on that region - perhaps New Brittany is mainly located in the northern Amazon/Venezuela and Guyana region, with the area covered by Colombia and Ecuador in OTL being unincorporated territories/indigenous states that were protectorates under New Brittany, until they gained independence and joined the Pan-*Andean Federation? On another note, I keep saying "*Andean" because I doubt they'd be called the Andes in this timeline. I don't know if there are any historical indigenous terms for the mountain range, but at least a few mountains in the Andes have Quechua names which include "cahuac" meaning "sentinel", so they could be the "Caguan" mountains or something similar in this timeline. What do you think?
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Post by rvbomally on Jan 24, 2017 0:50:02 GMT
Another draft. I'm interpreting New Britanny as the European name for South America. I like the name Caguan, so I'm using it. I'll add Chinese and Indian colonies to southern Africa. Any ideas for points of interest?
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Post by Krall on Jan 24, 2017 2:18:27 GMT
Another draft. I'm interpreting New Britanny as the European name for South America. Even though we've already got the terms North/South Occidentia? I like the name Caguan, so I'm using it. Thanks! The Caguan Union looks pretty much exactly how I imagined it. I'll add Chinese and Indian colonies to southern Africa. Any ideas for points of interest? What are your ideas for the history of India and Africa in this world? At the moment it looks like they've conglomerated into a couple of huge states with no real explanation for how that happened. And would dynastic Chinese states really survive to the modern era? I would've thought they'd at least adopt an official name rather than still being referred to by their dynasty.
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Post by rvbomally on Jan 24, 2017 2:44:12 GMT
Even though we've already got the terms North/South Occidentia? D'oh. Thanks! The Caguan Union looks pretty much exactly how I imagined it. Excellent! What are your ideas for the history of India and Africa in this world? At the moment it looks like they've conglomerated into a couple of huge states with no real explanation for how that happened. I'm thinking that both have been influenced by Harmonialism, itself a Confucian-derived philosophy promoted by the south Chinese. The reason this world has lots of large federations is because of the Harmonialist idea that people must be under the central authority of some wise patrician figure. It caught on in Africa and India, although execution-wise it's really shaky in Africa due to all of the different competing cultures and interest groups in the union, which is dominated by somewhat Sinicized Ethiopians. And would dynastic Chinese states really survive to the modern era? I would've thought they'd at least adopt an official name rather than still being referred to by their dynasty. Those names are somewhat placeholders, but I did imagine both states still claiming to be one China, with Harmonialism adding credence to that idea. In practice, it's one country, two systems.
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Post by Krall on Jan 24, 2017 3:11:11 GMT
I'm thinking that both have been influenced by Harmonialism, itself a Confucian-derived philosophy promoted by the south Chinese. The reason this world has lots of large federations is because of the Harmonialist idea that people must be under the central authority of some wise patrician figure. It caught on in Africa and India, although execution-wise it's really shaky in Africa due to all of the different competing cultures and interest groups in the union, which is dominated by somewhat Sinicized Ethiopians. I figured as much. I was more curious about what the status of those areas was before they were united - like were they colonies of Europe or China, and thus united in the aftermath of decolonisation? I do like the note about sinicised Ethiopians - that sounds like a very interesting concept. Those names are somewhat placeholders, but I did imagine both states still claiming to be one China, with Harmonialism adding credence to that idea. In practice, it's one country, two systems. So would both states be claiming to be the One True China, a la the PRC and Taiwan, or are they claiming that China is still united as a community even if it's not ruled by a single state?
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Post by rvbomally on Jan 24, 2017 4:29:19 GMT
I figured as much. I was more curious about what the status of those areas was before they were united - like were they colonies of Europe or China, and thus united in the aftermath of decolonisation? I do like the note about sinicised Ethiopians - that sounds like a very interesting concept. I was thinking the Union of Africa is made up of regions of Africa that were only lightly colonized or influenced by the West and East. With China being a maritime power and sending their ships to Europe for trade, Europe didn't really have much incentive to colonize eastward, and thus only had a few trading posts in Africa. The Union of Africa was made up of these independent African states, under Ethiopian tutelage, to stand strong against what they believed were increasingly hostile foreign forces. The Chinese, Indians and Arabs were more prolific colonizers, but they focused on the south and east, and colonial influence there is stronger. Ethiopia, for its part, was never colonized, but by virtue of having the largest empire in the region, was seen by China as the "African China" and thus traded with them and gave them a lot of ideas. So would both states be claiming to be the One True China, a la the PRC and Taiwan, or are they claiming that China is still united as a community even if it's not ruled by a single state? Both countries still cling on to the fiction of there being one China, but nobody's really serious about it.
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Post by rvbomally on Jan 24, 2017 17:45:35 GMT
Another draft. The PoD, by the way, is Kublai Khan not only losing at Sichuan, but dying, prompting another period of unrest within the Mongol Empire as they pick a new Khagan.
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Post by Krall on Jan 25, 2017 1:46:34 GMT
Another draft. The PoD, by the way, is Kublai Khan not only losing at Sichuan, but dying, prompting another period of unrest within the Mongol Empire as they pick a new Khagan. Ah, so I guess the period of unrest involves southern China rebelling and forming their own state, which is much more maritime and outward-looking leading to exploration expeditions and eventually colonisation of the Americas?
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Post by rvbomally on Jan 25, 2017 3:02:11 GMT
Another draft. The PoD, by the way, is Kublai Khan not only losing at Sichuan, but dying, prompting another period of unrest within the Mongol Empire as they pick a new Khagan. Ah, so I guess the period of unrest involves southern China rebelling and forming their own state, which is much more maritime and outward-looking leading to exploration expeditions and eventually colonisation of the Americas? In a manner of speaking. This is a remnant of the Song Dynasty that gets pushed south, and rather than being seized by the Mongols as they were IOTL, they managed to survive. So, any suggestions for annotations on the map itself? Any corrections?
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Post by Krall on Jan 25, 2017 3:12:18 GMT
In a manner of speaking. This is a remnant of the Song Dynasty that gets pushed south, and rather than being seized by the Mongols as they were IOTL, they managed to survive. Ah, makes sense. So, any suggestions for annotations on the map itself? Any corrections? Nothing I can think of. Are you planning to break the Union of Africa into smaller subdivisions? The ones it's got at the moment seem rather large.
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